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Old 23-09-2022, 18:03   #61
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Where did I go wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
There's a big difference between reefing the jib for a squall vs when you expect high winds for a day or 2. In the first case, just roll up some jib and go for it. But if it's going to be windy for a while, swap to a smaller jib. Not everyone with roller furling has multiple headsails, but plenty of people do. Maybe a 130 and a 110. Of course it depends on the boat too. If it only carries a 105 or 110 anyway then people are less likely to carry alternate headsails.


Modern production boats tend to have large headsails they are mainly headsail driven especially with the significant increase in in-mast mains resulting in smaller main sail areas.

Personally amongst the typical med cruisers very few have smaller headsail choices. It’s most unusual

They don’t need to , they just reef the bigger one

Med sailing is peculiar , as the OP points out.

Leave the dock with a underpowered headsail in the typical light airs and you’ll need a lot of diesel.

But now and then you can get exactly what the OP found , unforecasted sudden increases often at night. Often straight out of a clear blue sky.


The key in med is to ensure you can furl quickly and efficiently. Because you need to do it fast.

At night sail conservatively , sacrifice boat speed for less sail area. Reef more at the first signs out of the ordinary. Yes it can be a pita , on the sail today in 5 hours I put in three main reefs and shook them out. There is only me and the wife and she hasn’t the basic strength to manhandle the sheets or halyards. ( nor is she fast )

Nothing wrong with a big headsail. For the med you need lots of sail area , the issue is unexpectedly you need to get rid of it.

I met a US sailor and his wife completing a 7 year circumnavigation. He opined the med was the most difficult sea area he experienced around the world. He blew out his main off the Balearics.

So learn to reef that headsail in , have your furling gear in top condition, your boat may depend on it.
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Old 24-09-2022, 00:13   #62
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Re: Where did I go wrong?

I had a glance around the anchorage this morning. 38 boats , one had hanked on headsails all the rest were furlers
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Old 24-09-2022, 03:49   #63
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Re: Where did I go wrong?

Oh come on. So I need a quiver of sails because I loose some efficiency reefing my 130 Genoa? No way I'm doing it. Some things (roller fullering) are actual improvements for actual sailers. Stopping putting archaic ideas in our newbie heads.

Remember, the OP furled the Genoa. Sheets in the water aside, the roller furling worked just fine. It is nice to raise and lower the Genoa calmly in port to see how everything works.

And the MED is tricky which I continue to learn. Being underpowered and overpowered within minutes is nothing too unusual. We are getting good at reefing and good at sailing very comfortably on the Genoa only. But, I don't know if I will ever learn to enjoy the short period wind chop that is typical here.
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Old 24-09-2022, 06:06   #64
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Re: Where did I go wrong?

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Oh come on. So I need a quiver of sails because I loose some efficiency reefing my 130 Genoa? No way I'm doing it. Some things (roller fullering) are actual improvements for actual sailers. Stopping putting archaic ideas in our newbie heads.

Remember, the OP furled the Genoa. Sheets in the water aside, the roller furling worked just fine. It is nice to raise and lower the Genoa calmly in port to see how everything works.

And the MED is tricky which I continue to learn. Being underpowered and overpowered within minutes is nothing too unusual. We are getting good at reefing and good at sailing very comfortably on the Genoa only. But, I don't know if I will ever learn to enjoy the short period wind chop that is typical here.


A1 sir
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Old 24-09-2022, 06:28   #65
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Re: Where did I go wrong?

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Originally Posted by Sailer_Med View Post
Oh come on. So I need a quiver of sails because I loose some efficiency reefing my 130 Genoa? No way I'm doing it. Some things (roller fullering) are actual improvements for actual sailers. Stopping putting archaic ideas in our newbie heads.

Remember, the OP furled the Genoa. Sheets in the water aside, the roller furling worked just fine. It is nice to raise and lower the Genoa calmly in port to see how everything works.

And the MED is tricky which I continue to learn. Being underpowered and overpowered within minutes is nothing too unusual. We are getting good at reefing and good at sailing very comfortably on the Genoa only. But, I don't know if I will ever learn to enjoy the short period wind chop that is typical here.

You certainly don't need the range of sails you'd carry with hanked on headsails. But it's not a bad thing to have more than 1 headsail. Something big and lighter for lighter air trips and something smaller and heavier for heavier air trips. On a shorter passage, you'd probably swap before heading out based on expected conditions and then reef with the furler if needed underway. In areas of sudden wind changes you'd still appreciate the quick adjustments of the furler.

Basically, there's no reason to spend an entire passage sailing with a partially furled 130 if you have the option to start with something more suitable. Or if you want to be lazy about it, there's always the Solent rig. Then they can both stay up and it's just furl one, unfurl the other when you want to change.
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Old 24-09-2022, 06:56   #66
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Re: Where did I go wrong?

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You certainly don't need the range of sails you'd carry with hanked on headsails. But it's not a bad thing to have more than 1 headsail. Something big and lighter for lighter air trips and something smaller and heavier for heavier air trips. On a shorter passage, you'd probably swap before heading out based on expected conditions and then reef with the furler if needed underway. In areas of sudden wind changes you'd still appreciate the quick adjustments of the furler.

Basically, there's no reason to spend an entire passage sailing with a partially furled 130 if you have the option to start with something more suitable. Or if you want to be lazy about it, there's always the Solent rig. Then they can both stay up and it's just furl one, unfurl the other when you want to change.
Nope. Sorry. You are talking about crossing into sailing geek land. More stuff to manage, maintain, and faf around with. Buying, storing, and managing multiple genoas to buying and managing a Soylent rig is an ego show. Opportunities abound to waste time and money for boat stuff. However, often, good enough is good enough.
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Old 24-09-2022, 07:07   #67
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Where did I go wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
You certainly don't need the range of sails you'd carry with hanked on headsails. But it's not a bad thing to have more than 1 headsail. Something big and lighter for lighter air trips and something smaller and heavier for heavier air trips. On a shorter passage, you'd probably swap before heading out based on expected conditions and then reef with the furler if needed underway. In areas of sudden wind changes you'd still appreciate the quick adjustments of the furler.

Basically, there's no reason to spend an entire passage sailing with a partially furled 130 if you have the option to start with something more suitable. Or if you want to be lazy about it, there's always the Solent rig. Then they can both stay up and it's just furl one, unfurl the other when you want to change.


Again why talk about solutions very very few have , Solent rig is rare as hens teeth in the med.

Let’s stick to workable solutions based around what the majority have in that part of the World, one of the the if not “ the” most dense area of yachts on the planet

In the med you need big sail area most days but occasionally and with little warnings you get a pile of wind.

You’re not going to have multiple headsails cause it’s largely useless 95% of the time, you’ll have a standard overlapping headsail on a furler unit
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Old 24-09-2022, 07:32   #68
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Re: Where did I go wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailer_Med View Post
Oh come on. So I need a quiver of sails because I loose some efficiency reefing my 130 Genoa? No way I'm doing it. Some things (roller fullering) are actual improvements for actual sailers. Stopping putting archaic ideas in our newbie heads.

Remember, the OP furled the Genoa. Sheets in the water aside, the roller furling worked just fine. It is nice to raise and lower the Genoa calmly in port to see how everything works.

And the MED is tricky which I continue to learn. Being underpowered and overpowered within minutes is nothing too unusual. We are getting good at reefing and good at sailing very comfortably on the Genoa only. But, I don't know if I will ever learn to enjoy the short period wind chop that is typical here.
Oh come on! I suggested (encouraged) that sailors carry a smaller jib in addition to a large genoa and that they know how to change. And your response is, "So I need a quiver of sails?".

"quiver"? Clever answer.

Roller furling is an improvement for many sailors. But exclusive use of it detracts from efficient sailing in many of cases. Quite often a 130% Genoa is too big and too heavy, and a roller reefed genoa is always inefficient. Inefficiency is of no concern to you but to some of us it is unattractive.

We often sail our boat with a small working jib. It is very nice. We love it for easy handling, good visibility, and safety, and it makes us very effective sailors on all points of sail in a wide wind range. The boat is happy and we are happy. From 11 knots to 30 knots we can adjust to wind strength changes with mainsail size. We have a very fine sailing yacht and we like to sail it that way: the right sail combination, with good sail shapes, and knowing that we are doing our best. And if conditions go light, and we want to continue to sail, we drop the working jib and set a genoa. On the other hand, if we're feeling lazy we just drop the jib and motor.

But many people don't feel the need to sail with perfect sail trim, or to try to optimize their performance, ever. For them good enough is good enough. A heavy genoa in light air is good enough. A baggy rolled up heavy genoa in moderate to heavy air is good enough. Change sails? "No way I'm doing it." And when the squall comes and they are suddenly knocked down because they have a 130% genoa, well, s*** happens.

Just recall that the OP first got into trouble when they could not furl the genoa in a big blow. They would have been better off with a smaller sail.

Instead of archaic I'd say: "We're very seriously interested in sailing well, all the time, and being prepared for unexpected weather changes and be able to deal with them without a problem".

Based on goboatingnow's highly scientific survey, I guess that's just us.
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Old 24-09-2022, 08:19   #69
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Re: Where did I go wrong?

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
Oh come on! I suggested (encouraged) that sailors carry a smaller jib in addition to a large genoa and that they know how to change. And your response is, "So I need a quiver of sails?".

"quiver"? Clever answer.

Roller furling is an improvement for many sailors. But exclusive use of it detracts from efficient sailing in many of cases. Quite often a 130% Genoa is too big and too heavy, and a roller reefed genoa is always inefficient. Inefficiency is of no concern to you but to some of us it is unattractive.

We often sail our boat with a small working jib. It is very nice. We love it for easy handling, good visibility, and safety, and it makes us very effective sailors on all points of sail in a wide wind range. The boat is happy and we are happy. From 11 knots to 30 knots we can adjust to wind strength changes with mainsail size. We have a very fine sailing yacht and we like to sail it that way: the right sail combination, with good sail shapes, and knowing that we are doing our best. And if conditions go light, and we want to continue to sail, we drop the working jib and set a genoa. On the other hand, if we're feeling lazy we just drop the jib and motor.

But many people don't feel the need to sail with perfect sail trim, or to try to optimize their performance, ever. For them good enough is good enough. A heavy genoa in light air is good enough. A baggy rolled up heavy genoa in moderate to heavy air is good enough. Change sails? "No way I'm doing it." And when the squall comes and they are suddenly knocked down because they have a 130% genoa, well, s*** happens.

Just recall that the OP first got into trouble when they could not furl the genoa in a big blow. They would have been better off with a smaller sail.

Instead of archaic I'd say: "We're very seriously interested in sailing well, all the time, and being prepared for unexpected weather changes and be able to deal with them without a problem".

Based on goboatingnow's highly scientific survey, I guess that's just us.
Thats good rhetoric. Efficient sailing, not lazy, unattractive, etc.

Those are ridiculously over wrought. So the OP should have more sails, a blue water boat, his mast trued and rigging adjusted, the through hulls should have brass or titanium, and the boat in proper trim with courtesy flags flying and the ships log firmly affixed to navigator's table.

How far back do want to unwind this experience? You have to sail the boat you have.
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Old 24-09-2022, 08:41   #70
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Re: Where did I go wrong?

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Originally Posted by Sailer_Med View Post
Thats good rhetoric. Efficient sailing, not lazy, unattractive, etc.

Those are ridiculously over wrought. So the OP should have more sails, a blue water boat, his mast trued and rigging adjusted, the through hulls should have brass or titanium, and the boat in proper trim with courtesy flags flying and the ships log firmly affixed to navigator's table.

How far back do want to unwind this experience? You have to sail the boat you have.
And your proposal is? minimum number of sails and often the wrong sail a blue water boat(what is this?), his mast out of true and rigging mal-adjusted, the through hulls made from PVC, and the boat un-trimmed? That's fine?

And you're saying I'm ridiculous?

Let's up our game med-sailer. If you/re going to do something, anything, like sailing for instance, let's at least try to do it well. Mediocre doesn't suit any of us.
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Old 24-09-2022, 11:10   #71
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Re: Where did I go wrong?

My proposal would be actionable with what was available at the instant of the event. That's why I listed all those non sequiturs : they are no help whatsoever. Just like hanking on a sail that you don't have.

You sail the boat you have not the one you wish you had.
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Old 24-09-2022, 23:20   #72
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Re: Where did I go wrong?

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Thats good rhetoric. Efficient sailing, not lazy, unattractive, etc.



Those are ridiculously over wrought. So the OP should have more sails, a blue water boat, his mast trued and rigging adjusted, the through hulls should have brass or titanium, and the boat in proper trim with courtesy flags flying and the ships log firmly affixed to navigator's table.



How far back do want to unwind this experience? You have to sail the boat you have.


Absolutely correct in your last paragraph. Certain members here want us all to sail Slocum Sprays !
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Old 24-09-2022, 23:28   #73
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Where did I go wrong?

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And your proposal is? minimum number of sails and often the wrong sail a blue water boat(what is this?), his mast out of true and rigging mal-adjusted, the through hulls made from PVC, and the boat un-trimmed? That's fine?



And you're saying I'm ridiculous?



Let's up our game med-sailer. If you/re going to do something, anything, like sailing for instance, let's at least try to do it well. Mediocre doesn't suit any of us.


Sorry the OP has a perfectly fine “ blue water “ boat , he’s sailing in very challenging waters from time to time.

The key to med sailing is big reef-able sails, preferably in mast main , big roller headsails and in my case a endless furler light airs cruising chute

The key is then having sail controls to reef fast when it suddenly blows

No need to change sails that’s straight out of the 1960s just reef in the big sails that will stabilise the boat and allow progress to continue

All this nonsense about “get a different boat in the first place “ is just that , nonsense

If you want to sail out of the 1950s or 1850s that’s fine and dandy but stop trying to suggest that a modern boat isn’t capable if properly managed

A modern boat is far more hydrodynamically efficient , has access to high tech sails , has ease of handling gear including electric furling in many cases

This is a super super setup. Way better then Hank on stuff

With a typical husband and wife crew , everything that minimises deck work is best , safest and convienent. Arrange your boat to be completely controllable from the cockpit.
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Old 25-09-2022, 01:18   #74
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Re: Where did I go wrong?

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Sorry the OP has a perfectly fine “ blue water “ boat , he’s sailing in very challenging waters from time to time.

The key to med sailing is big reef-able sails, preferably in mast main , big roller headsails and in my case a endless furler light airs cruising chute

The key is then having sail controls to reef fast when it suddenly blows

No need to change sails that’s straight out of the 1960s just reef in the big sails that will stabilise the boat and allow progress to continue

All this nonsense about “get a different boat in the first place “ is just that , nonsense

If you want to sail out of the 1950s or 1850s that’s fine and dandy but stop trying to suggest that a modern boat isn’t capable if properly managed

A modern boat is far more hydrodynamically efficient , has access to high tech sails , has ease of handling gear including electric furling in many cases

This is a super super setup. Way better then Hank on stuff

With a typical husband and wife crew , everything that minimises deck work is best , safest and convienent. Arrange your boat to be completely controllable from the cockpit.
Until the in mast furler gets stuck that is.
A sail on mast slides hardly ever gets stuck.
I've seen more than one fail on in mast furlers. They are great when they work but really stupid when not.

Mast slides & single line slab reefing have their advantages then (apart from allowing full battens and a bigger roach if one would want that on their sail).

But, each one to their own.
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Old 05-10-2022, 18:09   #75
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Re: Where did I go wrong?

OK I guess I can walk into this lion's den with some ideas.

I see talk about rounding up vs heading down. I would be more afraid to head down and power up the boat too much than head up, pinching closely off the wind, to depower. 35kts of apparent wind shouldn't be too hard on the sails or the furling gear to bring them in/down. If I was short handed, turning on the engine and letting it idle would give some options if the boat go squirrelly.

I would bring in the headsail, then motor sail until things got settled, and I could make some choices.

But my biggest question is, why was the head sail hard to furl in? I think that's the biggest issue to solve to prevent this from happening again. When you have to get a sail in, it should be easy. A 40 ft boat may/probably require a winch in this situation, but as others have mentioned, have to be careful that it's actually coming in when winching to not damage something.

Is the setup too challenging to operate? Are the lines hard to work with? I spent a few years trying to find the right lines that wouldn't jam, easy on the hands, and winches actually grab:

"After 3 years with the Regatta Braid and regular use (3+ times a week?), many 35+kt wind conditions, and a few thousand miles sailing, I can confidently review the Regatta Braid with wholehearted enthusiasm. What an upgrade it has been!

The line just does not kink when unfurling. No twists have formed. And it spins perfectly into the drums every time. It's completely as advertised."

Also, multiple people have suggested that the genoa lines might be too long. When furled with a few wraps on the sail, we have maybe 2 ft left (including the stopper knot).

Seems spending some more time/thought on prevention could be useful.

And if it makes you feel better, we have ran over lines twice. Once was because a (very experienced, grew up on a sailboat type) friend wanted to get us going before the rest of the crew were done work, and he ran over our anchor line...

And once we were leaving an anchorage, and I hadn't noticed that our guests had tied a life ring off one of the sugar scoops while they were swimming. We have a catamaran, and it was shielded from line of sight by the dingy on davits. Ran right over that sucker. Oops!
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