What Justifies a "MAYDAY"?

[Jammer Six]

Next weekend, next month, next year, when I'm out on Puget Sound, skippering one of the cruisers in our club, I will have taken the class I mentioned, read the book I cited, this thread, and the pdf of the book Seaworthy Lass linked.

At that point, I'll consider the situation, that I'm on Puget Sound and everything else I've learned to date. Then I'll decide which call to make.

I'm content with my preparation for that decision.

If your information is local, (and for several of you, it is, contributors to this thread come from the U.K., Australia and places where they claim there are no charts) my suggestion is this: learn how they do things beyond the horizon.

I did.

Another thing has become clear to me as I read Lass's pdf: there is not an international standard, and if there were, there is no one to enforce it. I have no idea what a solution for that would be.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Jammer Six

Next weekend, next month, next year, when I'm out on Puget Sound, skippering one of the cruisers in our club, I will have taken the class I mentioned, read the book I cited, this thread, and the pdf of the book Seaworthy Lass linked.

At that point, I'll consider the situation, that I'm on Puget Sound and everything else I've learned to date. Then I'll decide which call to make.

I'm content with my preparation for that decision.

If your information is local, (and for several of you, it is, contributors to this thread come from the U.K., Australia and places where they claim there are no charts) my suggestion is this: learn how they do things beyond the horizon.

I did.

Another thing has become clear to me as I read Lass's pdf: there is not an international standard, and if there were, there is no one to enforce it. I have no idea what a solution for that would be.

You might have have missed Nigel1's posts of 149 and 156 which confirms what the international standard is.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

This seems to fit in more with the International expectations. It seems to me that our Australian Maritime College should be ammending their litature to fit in with this.

RC, you might want to read the forward of the AMSA radio handbook that Nigel1 linked - page i about halfway down the page

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Wotname

RC, you might want to read the forward of the AMSA radio handbook that Nigel1 linked - page i about halfway down the page

Ok, I've just read it twice. What specifically did you desire to point out to me?

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Ok, I've just read it twice. What specifically did you desire to point out to me?

Just this bit -
Quote "Operators of radio communications equipment on vessels not equipped with GMDSS installations should refer to the Marine Radio Operators Handbook published by the Australian Maritime College, Launceston, Tasmania, Australia." Unquote

Not really important but thought you might be interested anyway given your mild criticism of the AMC handbook. FWIW, I re-read the Urngency message section of the AMC radio book and I can't find much difference to the information in the AMSA radio book.

[Jammer Six]

Originally Posted by Wotname

You might have have missed Nigel1's posts of 149 and 156 which confirms what the international standard is.

I didn't miss them. I simply provided my source for having learned something else, from the U.S. Coast Guard, in another part of the world.

Conflicting standards are the same thing as no standard, hence my comment that there is no international standard. In the U.K., you guys do one thing, with no enforcement, in Australia, they do something else and promise enforcement, in Puget Sound, we have yet another standard, with no enforcement.

For that matter, I've never seen an international standard that really held water, whether about war, divorce or murder. The world is a big place, and this issue is no different.

Originally Posted by weavis

Real Examples:

1/. MAYDAY call.
"I have ......."

Equally valid are the mayday calls that happen every weekend on Puget Sound, for engines that won't start.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Just this bit -
Quote "Operators of radio communications equipment on vessels not equipped with GMDSS installations should refer to the Marine Radio Operators Handbook published by the Australian Maritime College, Launceston, Tasmania, Australia." Unquote

Not really important but thought you might be interested anyway given your mild criticism of the AMC handbook. FWIW, I re-read the Urngency message section of the AMC radio book and I can't find much difference to the information in the AMSA radio book.

I 'thought' one of the AMC handbooks failed to indicate the 'all stations' x 3, but now you point this out I've checked both books and I think I got that wrong.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Jammer Six

I didn't miss them. I simply provided my source for having learned something else, from the U.S. Coast Guard, in another part of the world.

Conflicting standards are the same thing as no standard, hence my comment that there is no international standard. In the U.K., you guys do one thing, with no enforcement, in Australia, they do something else and promise enforcement, in Puget Sound, we have yet another standard, with no enforcement.

For that matter, I've never seen an international standard that really held water, whether about war, divorce or murder. The world is a big place, and this issue is no different.


Equally valid are the mayday calls that happen every weekend on Puget Sound, for engines that won't start.

Please excuse me for labouring the point but the fact that what happens Downunder, in the UK, in Denmark or in Puget Sound is somewhat different in each place doesn't prove there isn't an international standard.

The ITU and the IMO have set international standards (or recommendations) and they do actually exist even if I or you don't follow them .

But enough of this, let's both get on the water and have no reason to be making MAYDAY or PAN PAN calls.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Jammer Six

I didn't miss them. I simply provided my source for having learned something else, from the U.S. Coast Guard, in another part of the world.

Conflicting standards are the same thing as no standard, hence my comment that there is no international standard.


Equally valid are the mayday calls that happen every weekend on Puget Sound, for engines that won't start.

Sorry, the fact that the USCG decides to teach something else does not mean there is no international standard, it merely means the USCG either doesn't know the international standard or chooses to ignore it.

But as Wotname noted - we apparently can't agree on this so let's just agree to disagree.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Weavis, great examples. But the problem is that your first example could just as well been a pan pan. And whilst your second example is definitely a pan pan, it wouldn't take much to turn it into a mayday.

I have to disagree with you.

A Captain with medical training is confronted with a crewman who complained of abdominal pain, and then suddenly the pain ceased and the crewman lapsed into unconsciousness? He has few options, the crewman need emergency medical treatment and declaring the EMERGENCY for suspected appendicitis (Captains opinion) he needs to get that crewman to hospital fast. He needed help immediately even if it was not appendicitis due to lack of consciousness.
Even though I concurred with his opinion, abdominal pain and unconsciousness is NOT a PAN PAN. Its a get help now situation.

The second example was a PAN PAN at the time of calling. What it turns into after is not the question.

Let us be absolutely clear about one thing. A MAYDAY will divert vessels in the area immediately to render aid to the hailing vessel. Its an emergency. Like right now.

A PAN PAN is an advisory of a situation that MAY develop but does not require EMERGENCY help like right now.

If you have a fire and its spreading, its a MAYDAY.
If your sinking, its a MAYDAY
IF your attacked by pirates its a MAYDAY
If a crew member is injured with unconsciousness and diminishing vital responses and you have no clue what to do its a MAYDAY.

If a MAYDAY is called, everything goes into action especially if the call is not repeated...... vessel in the vicinity will go into rescue mode. Its NOT the same as a PAN PAN...... ever.

I would be thoroughly irritated if I diverted or lost upwind gain for a non emergency situation. A commercial vessel can lose thousands of $ in fuel or time if diverts to help......

But then, The choice is always the Captains to make. I just hope he knows the difference and the emergency is real for a MAYDAY.

(2.3 years as senior medical respondent for Oil rigs and Offshore vessels up to 100 miles offshore in Northern latitude waters about 200 years ago. Total of 7 years in Emergency Trauma and rescue for several organisations. Now content in private practice and drinking coffee and eating cake.)

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by weavis

I have to disagree with you.

A Captain with medical training is confronted with a crewman who complained of abdominal pain, and then suddenly the pain ceased and the crewman lapsed into unconsciousness? He has few options, the crewman need emergency medical treatment and declaring the EMERGENCY for suspected appendicitis (Captains opinion) he needs to get that crewman to hospital fast. He needed help immediately even if it was not appendicitis due to lack of consciousness.
Even though I concurred with his opinion, abdominal pain and unconsciousness is NOT a PAN PAN. Its a get help now situation.

The second example was a PAN PAN at the time of calling. What it turns into after is not the question.

Let us be absolutely clear about one thing. A MAYDAY will divert vessels in the area immediately to render aid to the hailing vessel. Its an emergency. Like right now.

A PAN PAN is an advisory of a situation that MAY develop but does not require EMERGENCY help like right now.

If you have a fire and its spreading, its a MAYDAY.
If your sinking, its a MAYDAY
IF your attacked by pirates its a MAYDAY
If a crew member is injured with unconsciousness and diminishing vital responses and you have no clue what to do its a MAYDAY.

If a MAYDAY is called, everything goes into action especially if the call is not repeated...... vessel in the vicinity will go into rescue mode. Its NOT the same as a PAN PAN...... ever.

I would be thoroughly irritated if I diverted or lost upwind gain for a non emergency situation. A commercial vessel can lose thousands of $ in fuel or time if diverts to help......

But then, The choice is always the Captains to make. I just hope he knows the difference and the emergency is real for a MAYDAY.

(2.3 years as senior medical respondent for Oil rigs and Offshore vessels up to 100 miles offshore in Northern latitude waters about 200 years ago. Total of 7 years in Emergency Trauma and rescue for several organisations. Now content in private practice and drinking coffee and eating cake.)

Weavis, you may be right in the UK, though I doubt it. But in Australia you don't use a 'mayday' for a medical emergency. Not unless you are single handed and incapacitated, have limited time. And I reference 126 of the recognised radio procedures manual to confirm this. It clearly states not to be used for a medical emergency.

And a 'pan pan' is NOT and advisory call. Where you got this from I have no idea. It's an 'urgency' call, meaning help is urgently needed.

I really do not understand logically what you think you get extra in a medical urgency by calling a mayday over an urgency call. What? If your 'mayday' can get out, so does your 'pan pan'

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by weavis

Let us be absolutely clear about one thing. A MAYDAY will divert vessels in the area immediately to render aid to the hailing vessel. Its an emergency. Like right now.

A PAN PAN is an advisory of a situation that MAY develop but does not require EMERGENCY help like right now.

I agree.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

But in Australia you don't use a 'mayday' for a medical emergency.'

Then Australia is wrong.


It may have been right in the old days, but now peoples lives are more important.

As I said in a previous post: Take a group of 8 year old children on a birthday party on your boat and they all get some type of food poisoning and you radio in a Pan Pan and 4 die.

Who's the idiot then?


Mark

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

But in Australia you don't use a 'mayday' for a medical emergency. Not unless you are single handed and incapacitated, have limited time. And I reference 126 of the recognised radio procedures manual to confirm this. It clearly states not to be used for a medical emergency.

It does also say "the vessel, or person using it is threatened by grave and imminent danger... " a MAYDAY is justified.

These "Australian rules" are badly worded and I think you misinterpreting them. I find it very hard to believe that the intention of the guidelines is to suggest that a MAYDAY is not appropriate for an unconscious crew member with a probable burst appendix.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Weavis, you may be right in the UK, though I doubt it. But in Australia you don't use a 'mayday' for a medical emergency. Not unless you are single handed and incapacitated, have limited time. And I reference 126 of the recognised radio procedures manual to confirm this. It clearly states not to be used for a medical emergency.

And a 'pan pan' is NOT and advisory call. Where you got this from I have no idea. It's an 'urgency' call, meaning help is urgently needed.

I really do not understand logically what you think you get extra in a medical urgency by calling a mayday over an urgency call. What? If your 'mayday' can get out, so does your 'pan pan'

In Canada.. http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst...g/sf01334.html

5.2.2 Distress Signal

In radiotelephony, the spoken word for distress is "MAYDAY", and it should be used at the commencement of the first distress communication.

The distress signal indicates that a person or station sending the signal is:

threatened by grave and imminent danger and requires immediate assistance, oraware that an aircraft, ship, other station or person is threatened by grave and imminent danger and requires immediate assistance.

6.1 Urgency Signal

The urgency signal indicates that the station calling has a very urgent message to transmit concerning the safety of a station or a person, but does not require immediate assistance and shall only be sent on the authority of the person in charge of the station.

The urgency signal is "PAN PAN" spoken three times. It should be used at the beginning of the first communication.

The urgency signal and the urgency message may be addressed to all stations or to a specific station.

...
US seems similar, http://www.uscg.mil/d11/dr/CallingTheCG.asp

*Use MAYDAY when you are in imminent distress, and the term PAN, PAN (rhymes with on, on) for situations where you are concerned, but not necessarily in immediate danger.*

........
UK is similar as well. Medical or otherwise, if it's grave *and* imminent it's a mayday.