Use of specialized sails by shorthanded cruisers

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul L

DH
Yours might not be jammable on the way in, but others are. I delivered a Caliber 47 down the Pacific coast. By definition I was not experienced with the mast furler, nor was anyone else onboard. Did a complete Cluster F of a reef in 35kts and 12-15 foot seas, heading downwind. Ended up with a light jam in the furler and a rigid boomvang folded in half. Plus in tne recovery a wave down tbe companionway.

On that boat you did need to play clew tension while furling. I don't remember the furler brand, plus it was the first time the boat had been offshore. For that matter, it was hull #1 and the first time that model had been offshore.
Either way, I'll take credit for the CF reefing��

OK, well, that's the first I've ever even heard of such an incident. I can't even imagine how you would do it, but I'll take your word for it.


Probably different types are different -- the Selden system is more or less universal in this part of the world, and at least the Selden type just doesn't jam going in, and won't jam going out unless you've got a baggy sail, or you just whang the sail out with the outhaul without working the furler to ensure that the roll hadn't expanded and been pulled partially out of the slot.


The takeaway is that people who have never used it, or used it on a charter boat with bagged out sails and no skill, have all kinds of strong armchair or semi-armchair opinions about in-mast furling, whereas people who have actually had it, and have done some miles, especially rough weather ocean miles, with the system tend to like it, which is why virtually all the larger Oyster, Discovery, Halberg Rassy, Contest, etc. high end cruising boats have in-mast furling. If in-mast furling were some kind of nightmare of jamming like some armchair specialists fantasize, then buyers of those boats would insist on something different, but they don't. In-mast furling has several significant disadvantages, but a propensity to jamming is not one of them.


It looks like I will be building my next boat, rather than buying a series produced boat, so I will be able to have whatever kind of sails I want. I haven't decided for sure yet, but if the next boat is rigged like this one -- tall cutter rig - then I'm leaning slightly towards Selden in-mast with electric or hydraulic furler. But I also consider a ketch with a large mizzen (something like the old Sundeers had), in which case slab reefing would be OK because you don't need to reef as much with all the sail plan options, and because the sails are smaller. In either case, laminate sails.




Concerning "weakness" of in-mast furling masts -- this is ridiculous. On the contrary, in-mast furling masts are massively strong, because they are designed not to bend, which can impact the furling mechanism. But that brings a really big downside -- you can't bend them, so you lose the backstay as a sail control, and the mast is heavy, giving you a serious amount of extra weight aloft. Both of these are big drawbacks of in-mast furling. I imagine slender carbon masts on my ketch . . .


For a sloop or cutter rig on a cruising boat it's a hard decision. I wouldn't want in-mast furling if I didn't sail so much in rough weather and didn't have in the back of my mind the nightmare of trying to reduce sail while running off, having failed to anticipate the rising gale. I would never want in-mast furling in the Med or sailing coastwise in gentle latitudes with light winds where you really want the full mainsail shape and the roach to deal with light winds. But that's not how I sail, where I sail there is almost always too much wind rather than too little, and I think the very high popularity in the UK of in-mast furling likewise reflects the challenging conditions there.

[mikedefieslife]

I've got a behind the mast furling system from antiquity, and a mainsail that is starting to get baggy now. I second what Dockhead says. It does not and would be immensely difficult to get it to jam going in.

A jam going out is possible with a baggy sail, but doesn't really happen.

As it's so easy I often get the sail out more than I raise a regular main.

Originally Posted by peter loveridge

In my time I've tried everything. code 0, asymmetrical spinnaker, etc. Problem with these is you have to go to the foredeck to hoist them. Socks sort of work, but there's an awful lot of string. None of them are easy to use in a light wind and big slop, usual state in Nova Scotia. Finally got a big light foresail on an ordinary roller furler, mounted just ahead of the jib. Can't tack it, but otherwise works great

Why is going to the foredeck a problem? These are generally lightwind sails, so conditions are likely to be calm.

I regularly fly my symmetric spinnaker (as an asymmetric) shot handed. It only requires one line, so is nice and easy to deploy. Flying it as a symmetric with 4 control lines is a bit of a pain.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

. . . As it's so easy I often get the sail out more than I raise a regular main. . ..

One of the significant advantages of in-mast furling is that you can add or take away sail area, in infinite increments, as often as you need to, which means you're much more likely to have the right amount of sail area up.



Not only does this help you keep the boat on her feet and, in the contrary case, keep her moving, this can be yet another safety issue -- many knockdowns occur after storms, when the sea is still up but the crew is afraid to unreef because doing so (or at least, re-reefing if it becomes necessary) requires them to head up.


In ocean conditions it can be a huge thing to be able to quickly change sail area without heading up or going on deck.

[Paul L]

DH

and didn't have in the back of my mind the nightmare of trying to reduce sail while running off

Now you are getting a little extreme, nightmare to reef off the wind. More difficult, yes, but nightmare? Certainly no more of a nightmare than CF furling story I told.

You keep mentioning baggy sails as the culprit in jamming main furlers. Let me point out that a boat doing a circumnavigation does not have new sails, at least by tbe half way point. When theres a large number of boats doing a similar tough passage, like the islands to New Zealand every year, you consistently see main sail furlers being worked on afterward. Of course you see a lot things being worked on, but the owners aren't getting the work done on their main furlers because they worked so flawlessly on the passage.

[Sojourner]

Can I suggest looking into a parasailor? A bit pricey but a load of safe downwind fun. Dowsing sock so easy up and down. Good to 20k of wind coming from dead astern to almost dead abeam. Handles gusts without flinching, and pulls the bow upward and steadies against rolling.... you'll never pole out a jib again.

[a64pilot]

I asked around a lot about a downwind solution, many I asked said they had an Asymmetric, but never flew it or flew it once, it was just more trouble that it was worth.
I bought a code zero with the continuous line furler.
First you do not have to leave the cockpit for anything, it furls and unfurls just as easy as the Genoa, maybe easier, easy to do single handed,
If there is a downside it’s that if your not going to use it for awhile like when sitting in a Marina for a month or so, you ought to stow it as it does have UV protection, just that protection is no where near as durable as a sunbrella strip.
Plus you don’t reef one, it’s either in or out, but on mine as the wind gets to 15 kts, my 135 Genoa works as well as the code zero, so no point anyway. It’s good to 20 kts.
To stow it is a lot easier than any other sail, you leave it furled and just lower it through a deck hatch and out it in a bag. It’s big though about as big as a person in a bag and I’d guess weighs about 75 lbs

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I asked around a lot about a downwind solution, many I asked said they had an Asymmetric, but never flew it or flew it once, it was just more trouble that it was worth.
I bought a code zero with the continuous line furler.
Attachment 192606

Isn't a code zero an upwind sail though?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

Isn't a code zero an upwind sail though?

From what I can tell it’s a very flexible sail. It seems from what I can tell to be just a really big Jib/Genoa with just a little bit less to windward.
I have double slots in my Genoa foil, original plan was to run both my 110 and my 135 Genoa as a downwind solution, but the code zero seems to have almost as much area and doesn’t seem to need to be poled out.
So it seems to be a decent downwind solution, I’m sure not as good as an asymmetric, but those don’t work on a reach or upwind, where a code zero does.
So at least for me, it’s a light weight sail that is useable in many conditions, so it’s much more likely to be used.

If you look at the picture from the waves and the Ensign, I’m pretty sure we were on a reach and at about 7 kts.
However if you look at this one, you can see we weren’t heeled over.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul L

DH

Now you are getting a little extreme, nightmare to reef off the wind. More difficult, yes, but nightmare? Certainly no more of a nightmare than CF furling story I told.

The difference is that the first nightmare is one which I have experienced. The second one is -- I'll bet dollars to doughnuts -- one you have not experienced. Certainly I've never experienced it nor known anyone who has, and I think it is somewhat mythological.


Is it a nightmare to reef off the wind? OK, it's probably not the end of the world, but it's unpleasant and potentially dangerous in big sea conditions. Under those conditions you will be saying prayers of thanks to be doing it with in-mast furling -- that's where in-mast furling really shines.



I did manage to jam my main furling in the first months of ownership, before I knew how to work it. Getting the sail under control does not require cutting it down. You wrap it a spare halyard around it and catch it up behind the mast, then if you want to make it really neat you can put sail ties around it. I wouldn't want to be faffing with that in bad weather, but it's doable, and anyway, as I said, it doesn't ever jam given reasonable skill and reasonable sail condition.

Originally Posted by Paul L

You keep mentioning baggy sails as the culprit in jamming main furlers. Let me point out that a boat doing a circumnavigation does not have new sails, at least by tbe half way point. When theres a large number of boats doing a similar tough passage, like the islands to New Zealand every year, you consistently see main sail furlers being worked on afterward. Of course you see a lot things being worked on, but the owners aren't getting the work done on their main furlers because they worked so flawlessly on the passage.

Well, if you INTEND to sail with baggy sails, then I agree that in-mast furling is not for you. If you're using woven sails, then you should keep them fresh or use a different furling system. But best of all use laminate sails which never get baggy, which is what I do, and which is what I would do even if I didn't have in-mast furling. Life is too short to waste sailing time on crappy, baggy sails.



I'm not sure you mean by main sail furlers "being worked on". What was being done? In-mast furlers are actually simpler than roller furlers for headsails, and there is not really anything to "work on". You do need to lubricate them once every year or two, but that takes a few minutes whenever you have the sail down for something else. There are bevel gears at the bottom, but those are pretty much bomb proof and maintenance free, and likewise takes maybe 10 minutes to pull them if for some odd reason you needed to (speaking about the Selden system). If you have the endless rope drive system like I do, you might need to replace the rope and/or the plastic gripper drum from time to time, but that's pretty routine stuff.



I've never seen main sail furling "being worked on" in harbour, although I sail some tough waters, and where virtually every larger cruising boat has in-mast furling. The system is no less reliable and no more prone to jamming than normal slab reefing systems -- speaking as a person with tens of thousands of miles of real, not armchair experience with both systems.

[nhschneider]

I had the good fortune of being invited to crew on a 62’ boat on the San Diego - Puerto Vallarta race in 2006. Also among the crew were two ‘rock stars’ who were working for one of the major sailmakers in Southern California. After we crossed the finish line in Banderas Bay (we won our division), we went to furl the main (in-mast furling) and it jammed. Had to send one of the sailmakers aloft. Brand new sail was badly damaged. Skipper and crew highly experienced. This isn’t my only experience with in-mast furling failings but the best example I have of a system prone to problems despite having a competent crew.

Fair winds and calm seas.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The difference is that the first nightmare is one which I have experienced. The second one is -- I'll bet dollars to doughnuts -- one you have not experienced. Certainly I've never experienced it nor known anyone who has, and I think it is somewhat mythological.


Is it a nightmare to reef off the wind? OK, it's probably not the end of the world, but it's unpleasant and potentially dangerous in big sea conditions. Under those conditions you will be saying prayers of thanks to be doing it with in-mast furling -- that's where in-mast furling really shines.



I did manage to jam my main furling in the first months of ownership, before I knew how to work it. Getting the sail under control does not require cutting it down. You wrap it a spare halyard around it and catch it up behind the mast, then if you want to make it really neat you can put sail ties around it. I wouldn't want to be faffing with that in bad weather, but it's doable, and anyway, as I said, it doesn't ever jam given reasonable skill and reasonable sail condition.





Well, if you INTEND to sail with baggy sails, then I agree that in-mast furling is not for you. If you're using woven sails, then you should keep them fresh or use a different furling system. But best of all use laminate sails which never get baggy, which is what I do, and which is what I would do even if I didn't have in-mast furling. Life is too short to waste sailing time on crappy, baggy sails.



I'm not sure you mean by main sail furlers "being worked on". What was being done? In-mast furlers are actually simpler than roller furlers for headsails, and there is not really anything to "work on". You do need to lubricate them once every year or two, but that takes a few minutes whenever you have the sail down for something else. There are bevel gears at the bottom, but those are pretty much bomb proof and maintenance free, and likewise takes maybe 10 minutes to pull them if for some odd reason you needed to (speaking about the Selden system). If you have the endless rope drive system like I do, you might need to replace the rope and/or the plastic gripper drum from time to time, but that's pretty routine stuff.



I've never seen main sail furling "being worked on" in harbour, although I sail some tough waters, and where virtually every larger cruising boat has in-mast furling. The system is no less reliable and no more prone to jamming than normal slab reefing systems -- speaking as a person with tens of thousands of miles of real, not armchair experience with both systems.

Didn't I just tell you of my offshore, downwind cluster f* main sail reefing experience???? Why say I have not experienced it?


You may sail in an area that has tough conditions and many of the boats have main sail furlers that are bullet proof. The repairs that I mentioned were after typically 7-10 day passages to/from New Zealand on boats that have often recently crossed the Pacific. Where and tear is tough on an offshore boat. If you think these FUs don't happen, fine.

It sounds a little condescending to tell circumnavigators that they need to get new mains more often.

[undercutter]

Originally Posted by nhschneider

As we were circumnavigating, we developed an informal ‘fleet’ of about 30 boats with whom we would cross paths and share anchorages frequently. A few of those boats were equipped with in-mast furling and 100% of those boats developed problems. From my casual observations, in-mast furling is probably best suited for day sailing or at most, coastal cruising.

Fair winds and calm seas.

That's probably because their sails were blown out and they didn't want to replace them. i have been cruising on this boat for 10 years and never had a problem in 25000 miles but we replaced the sales immediately upon purchasing the boat.

[mikedefieslife]

One other point on the inmast furling. In lighter airs and a little bit of roll it will drive you crazy. Without a good load on the foil (which is lost during roll) the foil will bang around in the mast.

This is (annoying) something you hear in marinas too when skippers remove their inmast mainsail for winter or work.

[saillr]

Like I say - try in-boom furling. DH says you cant control the draft because the foot tension is fixed. Not so. You still have halyard tension and altho' it may not be a perfect shape - what the heck. we are cruising. I was amazed how much draft control you do have.
The other nice feature about boom furling besides the safety factor is you can furl while running. Just ease the pressure slightly and its a piece of cake - oops I mean a rum and coke.
I did roughly 10,000 miles solo on my 40 with boom furling a few years ago at the ripe old age of 70-odd and had no problems. The advantage of furling while running with a vanged and prevented boom is without question an advantage over mast furling. And no weight aloft.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul L

. . . .It sounds a little condescending to tell circumnavigators that they need to get new mains more often.

Not condescending at all -- just realistic. In-mast furling is good for some use cases, and bad for some other use cases. Sailing around the world on the same set of woven sails is not a good use case for in-mast furling. Nor do the benefits of in-mast furling mean much in the latitudes most circumnavigators use.


Horses for courses.