Use of specialized sails by shorthanded cruisers

[Cpt Mark]

I flew my asymmetrical solo all the time in appropriate winds. Take it down though when the wind starts to gust/pick up. Mine got hopelessly wrapped around the furled jib.

I now have a sock and that makes life easier. I sw a you tube video where they had a quick release shackle that worked under load. They'd pop that and the sail would go flying and then the sock came down super easy. Interesting idea.

My previous boat was a full keeled heavy displacement cruiser cutter rigged. Less than 10 knots I flew the spinnaker. 9-10 knots, spinnaker came down and jib went out. This allowed for good speed through the water. When the wind really started ripping the main reefed and heeling way over, the jib got rolled up and the cutter sail was flown which moved the center of effort back and righted the boat. It's a great combination. I looked at ketches etc. Too much extra maintenance for my liking.

[Greg Mason]

You ask a great question. When my wife and I went offshore, the sailmaker stated he would not make a sail my wife could not pick up. We did a Dutchman main for ease of cockpit handling and our genoa were both made of Spectra. We also had an asymmetrical with a sock. How I worked the Gennaker was to have the tack attached through a block, so I could ease the tack when sailing more downwind. Had an adjustable pole to hold out the clew when necessary. Great for light air sailing. We used it twice, once going down the west side of the Baja, and once, racing other cruisers from Huahine to Raitea/Taha'a. Great sail though.

[saillr]

Originally Posted by undercutter

Get a boat with inmast furling. Easiest single handling you will ever do. I agree, two furled headsails would also be nice but a cutter with a stay sail on a boom is ok too.

In my opinion, do not get a boat with in mast furling. Nothing worse than being in a blow, heavy conditions, short handed - just you and your wife with the boat wildly rolling and having the main jam in the mast while trying to furl it. There is only one solution to the predicament and that is to climb the mast and cut the sail down. The best answer is either traditional main or boom furling. With boom furling even if you do get a jam you can at least release the halyard and drop it the rest of the way and lash it to the boom.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by saillr

In my opinion, do not get a boat with in mast furling. Nothing worse than being in a blow, heavy conditions, short handed - just you and your wife with the boat wildly rolling and having the main jam in the mast while trying to furl it. There is only one solution to the predicament and that is to climb the mast and cut the sail down. The best answer is either traditional main or boom furling. With boom furling even if you do get a jam you can at least release the halyard and drop it the rest of the way and lash it to the boom.

In-mast furling doesn't jam when you're trying to furl it. I've never heard of such a case. Jamming happens when you don't know how to use it (and/or you're using a baggy sail), and when you're rolling the sail OUT.


I'm not selling in-mast furling -- I have been using it for the last 10 years and might not have it on the next boat -- it has certain disadvantages. But control over the sail when short-handed in heavy conditions is actually where in-mast furling shines. Being able to furl or unfurl without changing course and without leaving the cockpit can be even lifesaving in really big sea conditions.



In-mast furling is no good for fair weather coastal sailing because of the performance hit, but for ocean sailing in tough conditions and short-handed, the advantages of in-mast furling are quite huge.


In-mast furling is particularly good with laminate sails, which are thinner and more flexible and don't get baggy. The system itself works better with laminate sails, and the performance advantages of laminate sails help to make up for the performance disadvantages of the in-mast furling main, which can't have any roach. Also in-mast furling mains last longer because of ideal storage rolled up inside the mast, another complement to expensive laminate sails. In general, laminate sails and in-mast furling go together like cookies and cream.

[captmikem]

I find a symmetrical spinnaker to be one of my most used sails on a passage. Short handed or single handed. Next to that a 130 on the pole if the wind picks up.

I have tried asymmetrical 'cruising" chutes, but always end up putting them on a pole as they do not work well downwind.

I use an ATM sock and a Martin breaker which makes it easy to douse. I try to keep a hard rule to douse it above 20 kts. I find 18kts or above I make just as good speed with the 130 out on a pole wing and wing.

Atlantic east to west us usually five gybes.

Crossing the Pacific there are a lot of light wind days, the chute really makes a difference. a half a knot is 12 miles per day, which on light wind days can knock 3 hours per day off your run, which is almost a day in a weeks run.

Since I sail mostly single handed or what many people call "short handed", I like to keep my sails simple and efficient. Slab or Jiffy reefing, everything at the base of the mast, 130 on the furler, symmetrical chute, and ideally a cutter rig.

in mast furling mains are inefficient as they have no roach and will cost you a knot, which is 24 miles per day. That is a lot!

Don't be afraid of chutes or poles. Use them and get used to them, figure out how to handle them easily and they will become your best friends.

Michael

[wcapital]

A big drifter / reacher (or maybe it was a Code something-or-other....never knew what to call it) on a continuous line furler rapidly became my favorite sail - causing the Genoa to stay furled much of the time and often the Main too...while leaving the A-spin all but retired. It was a different kind of vessel, a 44' performance cruising cat....so the beam and variable tack position made it more flexible - but I'd still want something like it on almost any cruising vessel. It was good from light conditions up to 60 AWA, DDW in as much as 25k (true) w/ main down, and everything in between.

And much of the time it was just my Admiral & me.

[rbk]

Originally Posted by gallatin1988

Just as little further clarification.

I am asking these questions not in terms of should I get one these sails. But more in a more general vein of seeking information and education, as a non-racer and someone who is more interested in long distance long term shorthanded cruising. I'm just trying to get the lay of the land at the moment.

If you had/have these sails on board, why'd you keep them or get rid of them?
Do particular sails require specialized gear what might be needed to fly fly the typical spinnaker?
Are they durable? And a related question, are they repairable by an educated layperson?
Are they affordable by the average (whatever that might mean) cruiser?

Any and all input is welcome. All knowledge is useful.

Not too much in the way of specialized gear. Poles are handy which you should already have if cruising long distance. Check out link below for the taker and sleeve. Makes deploying and retrieval pretty easy. https://www.atninc.com

[saillr]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

In-mast furling doesn't jam when you're trying to furl it. I've never heard of such a case. Jamming happens when you don't know how to use it (and/or you're using a baggy sail), and when you're rolling the sail OUT.


I'm not selling in-mast furling -- I have been using it for the last 10 years and might not have it on the next boat -- it has certain disadvantages. But control over the sail when short-handed in heavy conditions is actually where in-mast furling shines. Being able to furl or unfurl without changing course and without leaving the cockpit can be even lifesaving in really big sea conditions.



In-mast furling is no good for fair weather coastal sailing because of the performance hit, but for ocean sailing in tough conditions and short-handed, the advantages of in-mast furling are quite huge.


In-mast furling is particularly good with laminate sails, which are thinner and more flexible and don't get baggy. The system itself works better with laminate sails, and the performance advantages of laminate sails help to make up for the performance disadvantages of the in-mast furling main, which can't have any roach. Also in-mast furling mains last longer because of ideal storage rolled up inside the mast, another complement to expensive laminate sails. In general, laminate sails and in-mast furling go together like cookies and cream.

You may not be trying to sell it but it sure sounds a bit like a sail's pitch (pun) to me. In-mast furling jams can happen while either furling or unfurling. It depends on how you do it as you say. Not enough tension on the clew will do it either way and that can happen while in a blow offshore when things are going nuts, sail thrashing and the urgency to get that thing down before it takes the mast down. All kinds of problems can develop.

You don't mention any of the advantages of Boom Furling over Mast Furling.
Such as - you can have full battens, full roach, better performance, can furl on the run, very difficult to jam (but I suppose anything can jam somehow).

Disadvantages of mast-furling besides jamming.
How about the weight aloft, rolling in an anchorage, weakened mast since it is now not a complete tube. and lots more. Off shore without battens in a light breeze and running in a seaway it's hard to keep any shape. Battens help immensely and you can use full battens with boom-furling.

I guess the main thing to consider is that jams do occur and they occur when you least need them. If it happens to in-mast furling at sea in a blow with the sail thrashing you have one choice. Cut the darned thing down. That means someone has to go up the mast with a knife. In a blow with rolling seas and the boat rolling heavily it is not for the faint of heart.

Should that happen to in-boom furling you simply drop the halyard and lash the main to the boom.

I guess it would also be safe to say laminate sails and in boom furling go together like rum and coke. Cookies and cream for a sailor?

[peter loveridge]

In my time I've tried everything. code 0, asymmetrical spinnaker, etc. Problem with these is you have to go to the foredeck to hoist them. Socks sort of work, but there's an awful lot of string. None of them are easy to use in a light wind and big slop, usual state in Nova Scotia. Finally got a big light foresail on an ordinary roller furler, mounted just ahead of the jib. Can't tack it, but otherwise works great

[KadeyKrogen38]

Your comment does not make sense. A staysail on a boom is self tending/tacking. A great sail with a reefed main on a windy day.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by saillr

You may not be trying to sell it but it sure sounds a bit like a sail's pitch (pun) to me. In-mast furling jams can happen while either furling or unfurling. It depends on how you do it as you say. Not enough tension on the clew will do it either way and that can happen while in a blow offshore when things are going nuts, sail thrashing and the urgency to get that thing down before it takes the mast down. All kinds of problems can develop.

You don't mention any of the advantages of Boom Furling over Mast Furling.
Such as - you can have full battens, full roach, better performance, can furl on the run, very difficult to jam (but I suppose anything can jam somehow).

Disadvantages of mast-furling besides jamming.
How about the weight aloft, rolling in an anchorage, weakened mast since it is now not a complete tube. and lots more. Off shore without battens in a light breeze and running in a seaway it's hard to keep any shape. Battens help immensely and you can use full battens with boom-furling.

I guess the main thing to consider is that jams do occur and they occur when you least need them. If it happens to in-mast furling at sea in a blow with the sail thrashing you have one choice. Cut the darned thing down. That means someone has to go up the mast with a knife. In a blow with rolling seas and the boat rolling heavily it is not for the faint of heart.

Should that happen to in-boom furling you simply drop the halyard and lash the main to the boom.

I guess it would also be safe to say laminate sails and in boom furling go together like rum and coke. Cookies and cream for a sailor?

There are plenty of disadvantages of in-mast furling -- we didn't go into them.


But have you ever actually used it? It doesn't sound like it. In-mast furling can't jam while going in, and clew tension is not required. I generally furl mine with the clew as loose as possible so long as the clew doesn't flog.



I only have about 35,000 miles experience with it, including 11 North Sea crossings, and Arctic Ocean up to 71N.



I can't comment much on in-boom furling because I've never used it, and don't know anyone who has. I guess in-boom furling is about 0.1% of the market at most, because it has some disadvantages which no one is willing to accept -- no control of foot tension would be the biggest for me, and a deal-breaker. In-mast furling, on the contrary, is pretty popular, because it works quite well. I didn't want it, when I was buying this boat 10 years ago, but there was not a single cruising boat over 50' and less than 30 years old for sale in the UK without it at the time I was shopping, so I had no choice. After a few months I realized that not all UK sailors are idiots.



As to sail shape and in-mast furling -- I have carbon laminate sails and vertical battens, and the shape is very good, thank you very much. One drawback of in-mast furling mains is that they need to be cut fairly flat, so mine is cut flat and there is a limit to how full you can get it for light wind, but in strong conditions, as we tend to get up here (I'm at 60N as I write this), this is an advantage. And in-mast furling mains get flatter and flatter as they are reefed, and unlike with in-boom furling, you always have the outhaul and full control of foot tension, and that is another good thing for latitudes with lots of strong wind. I have a couple of principle headsails, but use my 95% blade most of the time. This never gets reefed; sail area is controlled by reefing the main, whose shape just gets better as it's reefed down.



But again, I'm not selling them. There's no point to in-mast furling for lazy fair weather latitudes, and weekend sailing -- you lose roach, suffer from a heavier and un-bendable mast, etc. etc.. But for tough ocean conditions with lots of wind, in-mast furling offers some profound advantages. Running off in a rising gale in the middle of the North Sea with huge following seas, some of them starting to break -- do you want to head up to reef the main? And do you want to be on deck to do it? I've been there and done that, and thanked Neptune for in-mast furling, in that moment.


And jamming? In-mast furling is not idiot-proof, and requires more skill to operate than a conventional main with lazy jacks. But experienced users with reasonably fresh (or laminate) sails don't have jams (notwithstanding Ben Ainsley on his honeymoon , but he can't be said to be experienced with this system). 35,000 miles, almost all of them above 50N, over 10 years, and I've had exactly -- one jam, due to my own ignorance, in the first months of ownership. One less than the number of times I jammed the full batten main in the 10 years previous, with the previous boat.

[Bill Robinson]

I regularly use my twistle sails downwind. For those unfamiliar with this sail, it is a twin headsail with a common luff. I have a Reef Rite furler and 5 sails equipped with Kiwi slides. This enables me to easily change the headsail on the furler at sea. I am often singlehanded, or with just a single crew.

[thinwater]

I don't think this is about short handed sailing. Two is enough to handle reachers and asymmetricals.


It's not about speed.



This is about whether you want a sailboat or a sailing boat. Whether you like to cruise about a little, or really sail.



If you just want to get somewhere, it's cheaper and easier to fly.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by saillr

Not enough tension on the clew will do it either way and that can happen while in a blow offshore when things are going nuts, sail thrashing and the urgency to get that thing down before it takes the mast down. All kinds of problems can develop.

After 12 years with in mast reefing this isn't a situation that I am familiar with. When reefing down wind the wind pressure stops the sail from thrashing around. Remember you don't need to turn into the wind to reef with in mast sails.

Originally Posted by saillr

Disadvantages of mast-furling besides jamming.
How about the weight aloft, rolling in an anchorage, weakened mast since it is now not a complete tube. and lots more. Off shore without battens in a light breeze and running in a seaway it's hard to keep any shape. Battens help immensely and you can use full battens with boom-furling.

What makes you think the mast is weak? This is the profile of my mast and after 3 decades seems to have lasted quite well.

We do roll in an anchorage, but no more than anyone else. Weight aloft? Well my main on a 31ft yacht is a single handed lift. Since there isn't a big roach, you don't need battens to control sail shape, one less chafe point on the sail. Remember this in on a masthead rig, so big genoa and smaller main. The other major point is the sail is neatly stored rolled up in the mast out of the weather. So the sail last much longer, actually we only replaced it because the dacron had eventually stretched not because it was worn out.

I wasn't sure about in mast reefing before buying our yacht, now I am a convert and would choose it over slab reefing. Simple and easy to use with infinite reefing available from the cockpit just by pulling by hand on a halyard.

Pete

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

There are plenty of disadvantages of in-mast furling -- we didn't go into them.


But have you ever actually used it? It doesn't sound like it. In-mast furling can't jam while going in, and clew tension is not required. I generally furl mine with the clew as loose as possible so long as the clew doesn't flog.



.....

DH
Yours might not be jammable on the way in, but others are. I delivered a Caliber 47 down the Pacific coast. By definition I was not experienced with the mast furler, nor was anyone else onboard. Did a complete Cluster F of a reef in 35kts and 12-15 foot seas, heading downwind. Ended up with a light jam in the furler and a rigid boomvang folded in half. Plus in tne recovery a wave down tbe companionway.

On that boat you did need to play clew tension while furling. I don't remember the furler brand, plus it was the first time the boat had been offshore. For that matter, it was hull #1 and the first time that model had been offshore.
Either way, I'll take credit for the CF reefing😐