Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

My genoa foot is only inches above the toe rail. I wouldn't call that "highly abnormal." When let out, it blocks one sidelight (depending on tack) to large sectors astern of the lights on the bow - even more so when the boat heels.

I have solar panels at my shrouds that block about 20 degree sectors ahead of both sidelights mounted on the cabin sides.

I refuse to throw out my solar panels and stop using my genoa.

I wonder how many sailors have given any thought at all to how their sails and gear block their sidelights. My pessimistic side says they just install the required lights, say "that's legal," and ignore these blockage situations when their lights may not be seen. I'm not one of those "legalistic" sailors. I understand the "General Prudential Rule" ("deviate from the rules if you have to for safety") and how lights are there so people can see me - not to make lawyers or self-appointed regulatory interpreters happy. Mine's not a Band-Aid approach - it's a non-legalistic practical approach to solving a problem of prudent seamanship.

I have a switch, by the way, that turns off the sidelights on the cabin sides when I'm not flying my genoa.

For those who prefer tri-color lights, feel free to jump in here and point out how these problems of gear blocking navigation lights don't exist with a masthead-mounted tri-color light. On this point -- you have a perfectly valid argument.


Everything's a compromise.

Well, the boat should have been designed such that the factory supplied navigation lights are ColRegs compliant.

If so, and they are not visible with the genoa hoisted, then there are likely two possibilities:

A) The navigation lights have been modified and a fault introduced.

B) The genoa is not rigged as intended (perhaps a pendant omitted) and a fault introduced.

In either case, making a further modification, that introduces yet more faults is not justifiable.

I recommend reviewing other examples of the vessel to determine if the sidelights are original, and if others use a pendant to raise the genoa above the nav lights.

If not, and it is an original design flaw, then the correct action is to fix the problem; make the nav lights ColReg compliant.

Edit: If you only show compliant nav lights under all possible circumstances, please disregard.

I can't speak for others, but I always check nav light visibility when I am planning any vessel modification to ensure I don't obscure them. This includes anything to do with anchors, rigging, and especially retractable sprits / spinnakers, as well as things hung off the stern rail near the stern light.

Second Edit: I was once horrified to find that fenders were hung off the stern rail in such a way that they were blocking our stern light. This was immediately changed, and Silhouette rule # 6457 established. ;-)

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

My genoa foot is only inches above the toe rail. I wouldn't call that "highly abnormal." When let out, it blocks one sidelight (depending on tack) to large sectors astern of the lights on the bow - even more so when the boat heels.

Well, you could put the sidelights on the shrouds, above the point where the Genoa overlaps.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Well, the boat should have been designed such that the factory supplied navigation lights are ColRegs compliant.

If so, and they are not visible with the genoa hoisted, then there are likely two possibilities:

A) The navigation lights have been modified and a fault introduced.

B) The genoa is not rigged as intended (perhaps a pendant omitted) and a fault introduced.

In either case, making a further modification, that introduces yet more faults is not justifiable.

I recommend reviewing other examples of the vessel to determine if the sidelights are original, and if others use a pendant to raise the genoa above the nav lights.

If not, and it is an original design flaw, then the correct action is to fix the problem; make the nav lights ColReg compliant.

Edit: If you only show compliant nav lights under all possible circumstances, please disregard.

I can't speak for others, but I always check nav light visibility when I am planning any vessel modification to ensure I don't obscure them. This includes anything to do with anchors, rigging, and especially retractable sprits / spinnakers, as well as things hung off the stern rail near the stern light.

Second Edit: I was once horrified to find that fenders were hung off the stern rail in such a way that they were blocking our stern light. This was immediately changed, and Silhouette rule # 6457 established. ;-)

I applaud your diligence in always checking your gear for navigation light blockage. That's good seamanship.

It's my genoa that isn't "COLREGs compliant." My cabin mounted lights are in the same place they were when Pearson built my boat in 1963. All my lights themselves are COLREGs compliant.

I can't add a longer pendant to my genoa without raising my mast (obviously impractical) and without raising the vertical center of effort - destabilizing the configuration. I'm sorry you don't like my genoa. Please don't use it. I failed to verify that my genoa had regulatory approval ;-)

We're less likely to collide if you can see my lights at night. That's all I care about on this topic. And we're only talking here about a second set of sidelights used infrequently under special circumstances.

This argument is becoming circular. I believe your rigid obsession with your personal interpretation of the rules, and your disregard for rule 2b,* is blinding you to the practical issue.

See how much trouble those of you with tri-color lights are avoiding?


I'm out of here. Have your lawyer call my lawyer.


* https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/33/83.02

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Well, you could put the sidelights on the shrouds, above the point where the Genoa overlaps.

Yes, it's a good suggestion. But with them that high, my mainsail, when let out, will block the lights astern. I'd have to place the lights so high to get above the mainsail that I'd just end up with a tri-color light.

[Uricanejack]

Having a second set of side lights is ok and compliant.
Useing both at the same time is not.
unless they are close enough together to be seen as one from a distance.
As already pointed out it’s a common practice to use to lights or more lights to create an all round light.

Showing the wrong lights is confusing to other vessel’s. It’s a violation of the rules and poor seamanship.
Just show the correct lights. Pick what you like, out of the various options.

Trincolor, combined bow lantern, separate lights. Add the red and green all round.
If worried get brighter ones.

The practice of good seamanship.
Ensure your vessel can be seen and identified correctly.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

Yes, it's a good suggestion. But with them that high, my mainsail, when let out, will block the lights astern. I'd have to place the lights so high to get above the mainsail that I'd just end up with a tri-color light.

Your sidelights only need to be visible (and MUST only be visible) to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam. Your mainsail is not going to cause any issue with your sidelights in any case. So the shrouds is a good place. You talk about "blocking the lights astern" -- well, the sidelights should not be visible astern. From astern other vessels should only see the stern light.


But I'm having trouble imagining how your genoa could block the sidelights, if they are mounted forward of the headstay, say in the pulpit.


Maybe you're overthinking this?

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

Having a second set of side lights is ok and compliant.
Using both at the same time is not.. . .

Indeed.



So a simple solution would be to simply switch them separately, so you can choose one or the other, depending on how it seems the sails are interfering -- if indeed there is any such problem.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Another disadvantage is that the red over green is slightly more complicated, especially if want to also include an all round anchor light at the masthead. There are more lights, more wiring and more holes in the mast. Not a big difference, but simple is good , especially at the top of mast where things are difficult to fix. The extra lights also create slightly more power consumption.

It's fairly easy to run two switchable lights from one set of conductors using a diode in each light and a double pole double throw, centre off, switch to reverse the current direction through the single set of conductors.

[SUNCAT365]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

You can't have a tricolour by itself if you have an engine so in essence a tricolour is an adjunct and offshore light only. Certainly wouldn't have it on in a shipping lane, but for low traffic areas they keep light off the deck (and surrounding sea) which helps night vision. I prefer them for this reason alone.

The tri-color is legal under 20m.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

It's fairly easy to run two switchable lights from one set of conductors using a diode in each light and a double pole double throw, centre off, switch to reverse the current direction through the single set of conductors.

Yes good point this technique can save on switching and wiring. However with an anchor light and tricolour there is one light fixture to attach to the top of mast (and replace when it fails, and it will fail )

With red over green and an anchor light you normally have four light fixtures. 1xred 1xwhite and 2xgreen. Extra complexity and adittional falure points are not ideal especially at the top of the mast.

I still have a soft spot for red over green and perhaps this extra complexity is justified. The extra visibility has appeal. My biggest concern is the requirment of sailing with the lower navigation lights on.

Few boats can turn on their lower navigation lights without some impact on night vision. This problem is potentially solvable, so this is not an absolute contradiction, but it is nevertheless difficult to solve on a sailing yacht.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

. . . I still have a soft spot for red over green and perhaps this extra complexity is justified. The extra visibility has appeal. My biggest concern is the requirment of sailing with the lower navigation lights on.

Few boats can turn on their lower navigation lights without some impact on night vision. This problem is potentially solvable, so this is not an absolute contradiction, but it is nevertheless difficult to solve on a sailing yacht.

I agree, and the biggest obstacle to red over green for most people I bet is the 1 meter separation. But nowadays we can use much more compact, much lighter LED fixtures, and I bet someone could make a simple light pole which could be put on top of the mast which wouldn't interfere with anything. I will be taking off an ultrasonic wind instrument which will free up a standard 1" socket, a robust one, on the top of the mast truck, which would be perfect for this.


Perhaps the night vision issue could be solved with screens. This issue drives me crazy, and drives me to use my tricolour although I know very well that the tricolour is not seen very well.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

I understand the "General Prudential Rule" ("deviate from the rules if you have to for safety") and how lights are there so people can see me - not to make lawyers or self-appointed regulatory interpreters happy. Mine's not a Band-Aid approach - it's a non-legalistic practical approach to solving a problem of prudent seamanship.

But you haven't "solved" the problem. You, or someone else, fitted an oversized genoa which is likely not used in other boats of your class, and you fitted solar panels which also partially obscure your running lights. Wouldn't the "practical" as well as legal solution be to reposition your running lights to solve this problem which has been created on your boat. The most obvious solution would appear to be to reposition your running lights on the bow pulpit where both problems go away.

[El Pinguino]

Someone up above mentioned the photos that you can see in this link http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ur-191729.html
and there is also - on the last page - an interesting anchor light photo.... enjoy.

And also also... in that thread I see Wayne aka 'Ambler' mentions that he has 'red over green' on his yacht together with the reason for fitting them..... found a photo ... not much detail but doesn't look too complicated....

[ErnestV]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Interesting how the rules are worded. The tricolor is specifically for vessels under 20 meters. No LOA specification is given for R over G, but my interpretation is that, since a vessels over 20 meters cant run a tricolor, by default it must use R over G...and conversely if your vessel is under 20 meters you cant run R & G since the tricolor applies.

Not sure whether that is the correct interpretation but Ive never seen R over G on a smaller vessel.

No, this is not a correct interpretation. Any sailing vessel may choose to display RoG together with flying the deck level nav lights. Clearly and unambigously stated in Rule 25c of the Colregs:

Rule 25 - Sailing Vessels underway and Vessels under Oars
(a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:
(i) sidelights;
(ii) a sternlight.
(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 metres in length the lights prescribed in
paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.
(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this Rule.

25.a: required to use side- and sternlights
25.b: if less than 20m a tricolor may be used instead
25.c: When runnng, side- and sternlights may be accompanied by RoG, but not together with Tricolor.

Annex I, 2.i.ii dictates that the spacing of R and G must not be less than 1 meter (3.3'):

(ii) on a vessel of less than 20 metres in length such lights shall be spaced not less
than 1 metre apart and the lowest of these lights shall, except where a towing
light is required, be placed at a height of not less than 2 metres above the
gunwale.

[Taipe]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

........Perhaps the night vision issue could be solved with screens. This issue drives me crazy, and drives me to use my tricolour although I know very well that the tricolour is not seen very well.

On the contrary, a mast head tri-color in cresting seas is typically seen much better than would nav lights near deck level when at distances far enough away to offer a significant advantage of time to change course. Alternatively, nav lights near deck level are typically quite difficult to see and track at the same comparable distance, as two vessels will appear and disappear in the troughs of successive waves.


But to address the relative value of all-around red over green, I am at a loss to understand it, being as nav lights exist for not just visibility, but to provide other vessels with the relative bearing of a vessel's motion. Please help me if I am missing something here, but all around lights convey nothing about a vessel's bearing.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Taipe

On the contrary, a mast head tri-color in cresting seas is typically seen much better than would nav lights near deck level when at distances far enough away to offer a significant advantage of time to change course. Alternatively, nav lights near deck level are typically quite difficult to see and track at the same comparable distance, as two vessels will appear and disappear in the troughs of successive waves.


But to address the relative value of all-around red over green, I am at a loss to understand it, being as nav lights exist for not just visibility, but to provide other vessels with the relative bearing of a vessel's motion. Please help me if I am missing something here, but all around lights convey nothing about a vessel's bearing.

This may have been mentioned before as this is a 3yo thread.

The red over green was introduced in the 70s(?) for use - although it doesn't say as much in the rules - by large sailing ships rather than yachts.
This was so that watch keepers did not think that they only had a yacht to dodge but something much more substantial. They are intended to tell you what you are looking at - same same NUC etc.

You still have to show side lights if showing red over green - not a tricolour - but proper sidelights and stern lights at or near deck level that let others establish your aspect.

Be thankful they dropped 'how is she heading ' questions involving sailing ships from 2nd mates 'orals' in 1965. As in ' you are heading NE and the wind is from the NW - you see a green light 3 points on your starboard bow - how is she heading?'
They were fun - easy enough once you had figured out the methodology involved but don't ask me to do one now.