Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by Bbolino

From USCG nav rules


(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this Rule.

Right. "paragraph b" refers to the tri-color light configuration at the masthead. Why anyone would display the red-over-greens AND a tri-color light, both at the top of the mast, is beyond me.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by Charles S

Does anyone suggest any models of R/G lights available?
360 degree R. + 2 180 deg green ?
Thanks

See my post 105 above.

[Fidsplice]

Seems to be a bit of confusion. Read rule 25. Red over Green MAY be used at masthead to show what kind of vessel you are (sail), but if you use these you must as well show separate side lights and stern light. Side lights and stern lights show your heading. R/G show additionally you are a sail boat.

Tricolour is an option for vessels under 20 m, but (25 c) “these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this rule.”

However, if you are under power you CANNOT use a tricolour because ANNEX 1 (POSITIONING ........) 2 (g) and (h) decree that the masthead (steaming) light must be above the sidelights.

[PilgrimW42]

Thanks for your reply. If we happen to meet
beyond the 200 mile limit please advise me of your concern regarding being misidentified as Mars. I will gladly turn off my tri.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by Fidsplice

Seems to be a bit of confusion. Read rule 25. Red over Green MAY be used at masthead to show what kind of vessel you are (sail), but if you use these you must as well show separate side lights and stern light. Side lights and stern lights show your heading. R/G show additionally you are a sail boat.

Tricolour is an option for vessels under 20 m, but (25 c) “these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this rule.”

However, if you are under power you CANNOT use a tricolour because ANNEX 1 (POSITIONING ........) 2 (g) and (h) decree that the masthead (steaming) light must be above the sidelights.

I agree with all above.

I have a three position toggle switch:

• UP: red-over-green lights on (Rule 25(c) compliance)
• CENTER: Both red-over-green and steaming lights off (Rule 25 (a) compliance)
• DOWN: steaming (masthead) light on (Rule 23 (a)(i) compliance)

A separate switch turns on my port, starboard, and stern navigation lights at deck level, and supplies power to the switch above (the switch above is dependent on this switch for power). So all the configurations are controlled by just two toggle switches - which also prevent illegal configurations.

Unusually, I have two red and two green navigation lights at deck level, one set at the bow and the other set on the cabin sides. That's because my sails can block one or the other set of lights over some sectors. I've never found a prohibition on having two sets of side navigation lights.

The maximum power draw, with the red-over-greens and the two sets of side navigation lights (plus stern) on, is 1.5 amps. The side lights are 2 nm lights, and the stern is a 3 nm light -- exceeding the COLREGs requirements for my 8 meter boat.


So I ask: which boat is more visible; mine, or a boat with a tri-color displaying only one disembodied point of light hovering in space?

[Uricanejack]

I suspect the Mars comment is a bit of a joke.

Even so there is some truth in the comments about tricolour lights being misleading to the observer. They appear to be a lot further away.

I don’t have one on my boat and wouldn’t fit one or use one. The red over green. Maybe. The problem for me would be ensuring the green would not be partially obscured by my sails.
Otherwise for visibility. A great idea, which I have seldom seen used in the real world.
On sighting I would presume it was a large vessel. Though there is no specification for sise.

[alctel]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

I agree with all above.

I have a three position toggle switch:

• UP: red-over-green lights on (Rule 25(c) compliance)
• CENTER: Both red-over-green and steaming lights off (Rule 25 (a) compliance)
• DOWN: steaming (masthead) light on (Rule 23 (a)(i) compliance)

A separate switch turns on my port, starboard, and stern navigation lights at deck level, and supplies power to the switch above (the switch above is dependent on this switch for power). So all the configurations are controlled by just two toggle switches - which also prevent illegal configurations.

Unusually, I have two red and two green navigation lights at deck level, one set at the bow and the other set on the cabin sides. That's because my sails can block one or the other set of lights over some sectors. I've never found a prohibition on having two sets of side navigation lights.

The maximum power draw, with the red-over-greens and the two sets of side navigation lights (plus stern) on, is 1.5 amps. The side lights are 2 nm lights, and the stern is a 3 nm light -- exceeding the COLREGs requirements for my 8 meter boat.


So I ask: which boat is more visible; mine, or a boat with a tri-color displaying only one disembodied point of light hovering in space?

This is a way more elegant solution than mine - I installed a separate breaker panel just for external lights!

[alctel]

Oh, and details of my red over green install are here


It's already been rehashed here but my reasoning is here


It looks like this lit up

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

Unusually, I have two red and two green navigation lights at deck level, one set at the bow and the other set on the cabin sides. That's because my sails can block one or the other set of lights over some sectors. I've never found a prohibition on having two sets of side navigation lights. .......t with a tri-color displaying only one disembodied point of light hovering in space?

A simple trap for young players
25a sez '25. Lights for sailing and rowing vessels

Sailing vessels underway and vessels under oars

(a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:

1. sidelights;

2. a sternlight.'

Sidelights does indeed seem to be plural.... ie as many as you want.... however...

What we have in 'Rule 21. Definitions

“Sidelights” means a green light on the starboard side and a red light on the port side each showing from right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on its respective side.....'

So while pural in one sense it is singular in another... one red... one green....

So yes.... showing two red and two green sideilghts is incorrect...

However the only risk I can see is if a fast moving motor boat tries to pass between the two yachts it sees ahead...

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by alctel

Oh, and details of my red over green install are here

....

That is essentially how I would go about it...replace trilight with all round green.... fit metre long stick... put red on top of that.... easy if you say it real quick....

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

A simple trap for young players
25a sez '25. Lights for sailing and rowing vessels

Sailing vessels underway and vessels under oars

(a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:

1. sidelights;

2. a sternlight.'

Sidelights does indeed seem to be plural.... ie as many as you want.... however...

What we have in 'Rule 21. Definitions

“Sidelights” means a green light on the starboard side and a red light on the port side each showing from right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on its respective side.....'

So while pural in one sense it is singular in another... one red... one green....

So yes.... showing two red and two green sideilghts is incorrect...

However the only risk I can see is if a fast moving motor boat tries to pass between the two yachts it sees ahead...

All probably true, but...

With only one set of sidelights, in some sectors I will be showing no sidelight at all when either set of lights are blanked by my foresail, so... it's a choice of being illegal or possibly being dead. Illegal sounds better.

On the other hand, the COLREG requirements can be interpreted as specifying only minimums. Just like the COLREGs require 1 nm lights on my 8 meter vessel - while my having 2 nm lights is not a violation. And it's easy to argue in court that two sets of lights were "prudent and necessary," while the skipper of that motor boat that passed between two lights spaced only 5 meters apart wasn't practicing good seamanship (and was most likely drunk anyway).

At any rate, I passed a voluntary Coast Guard inspection multiple times, while I pointed out my unusual configuration.

[El Pinguino]

Light ranges are minimums.... numbers of lights to be shown are both minimum and maximums....

Rule 20(b). The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights as cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules'

[Cpt Pat]

Still not conclusive. The intent of that rule is to have a "dark deck" to prevent other lights from obscuring, or being interpreted as, navigation lights. In my case, the "other" lights are navigation lights. (I wish the fishing boats around here followed that rule - they appear as giant white blinding blobs with all their lights on.)

I think we're splitting regulatory hairs. I feel confident that my display of two sets of sidelights falls under the "General Prudential Rule."

ColReg 2(b) — In construing and complying with these rules, due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision, and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from the above rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.”


(emphasis mine)


But if it ever comes up, I'll let the court decide. I'm not a lawyer practicing admiralty law. I think it's safer, so it's better to appear in court instead of Davy Jone's Locker.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

All probably true, but...

With only one set of sidelights, in some sectors I will be showing no sidelight at all when either set of lights are blanked by my foresail, so... it's a choice of being illegal or possibly being dead. Illegal sounds better.

On the other hand, the COLREG requirements can be interpreted as specifying only minimums. Just like the COLREGs require 1 nm lights on my 8 meter vessel - while my having 2 nm lights is not a violation. And it's easy to argue in court that two sets of lights were "prudent and necessary," while the skipper of that motor boat that passed between two lights spaced only 5 meters apart wasn't practicing good seamanship (and was most likely drunk anyway).

At any rate, I passed a voluntary Coast Guard inspection multiple times, while I pointed out my unusual configuration.

Why is the boat rigged such that the navigation lights are blocked by sails?

This is highly abnormal, either the bow lights are ahead of the sails, and/or well under the sails.

I recommend fixing this vs band-aiding the issue with extra lights that are not ColRegs compliant, and could be mistaken, causing collision avoidance confusion.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Why is the boat rigged such that the navigation lights are blocked by sails?

This is highly abnormal, either the bow lights are ahead of the sails, and/or well under the sails.

I recommend fixing this vs band-aiding the issue with extra lights that are not ColRegs compliant, and could be mistaken, causing collision avoidance confusion.

My genoa foot is only inches above the toe rail. I wouldn't call that "highly abnormal." When let out, it blocks one sidelight (depending on tack) to large sectors astern of the lights on the bow - even more so when the boat heels. It also blocks a large sector ahead of the lights mounted on the cabin sides. With both sets of sidelights on, one or the other set can be seen from all sectors.

I have solar panels at my shrouds that block about 20 degree sectors ahead of both sidelights mounted on the cabin sides. Those are "up" all the time, and are my reason for installing the bow lights.

I refuse to throw out my solar panels and stop using my genoa.

I wonder how many sailors have given any thought at all to how their sails and gear block their sidelights. My pessimistic side says they just install the required lights, say "that's legal," and ignore these blockage situations when their lights may not be seen. I'm not one of those "legalistic" sailors. I understand the "General Prudential Rule" ("deviate from the rules if you have to for safety") and how lights are there so people can see me - not to make lawyers or self-appointed regulatory interpreters happy. Mine's not a Band-Aid approach - it's a non-legalistic practical approach to solving a problem of prudent seamanship.

I have a switch, by the way, that turns off the sidelights on the cabin sides when I'm not flying my genoa.

For those who prefer tri-color lights, feel free to jump in here and point out how these problems of gear blocking navigation lights don't exist with a masthead-mounted tri-color light. On this point -- you have a perfectly valid argument.

Everything's a compromise.