Scuttle The Boat When Abandoning Ship?

[a64pilot]

A possibility is I have a medical condition, say a heart attack 25 miles off of Tampa Bay in nice calm weather, CG shows up and takes me and the wife to Medical help, do you scuttle?
Heck no, you give the location to Sea Tow and they Salvage or to a friend who motors out and gets the boat, remember it's in perfect shape, your the one broken.
Rebel Hearts case for example, that one you scuttle

[Stumble]

My issue with scuttling the boat is that I refuse to destroy the only thing keeping me alive until such a time that I cannot use it anymore.

Sure the CG may be there to pick you up, but something could go wrong in the transfer, they could have to abort for mechanical issues, they may even choose to delay for weather. Until you are actually in the basket getting hauled up you simply cannot not know for sure that you will be rescued. Sure it may be a high likelihood, but so long as the boat is floating and I am on it I won't do anything to reduce its likelihood to keep floating.

If after I am of five the USCG wants to take pop shots at it I don't mind however.


As for the likelihood of an abandoned vessel being a danger. Technically I am sure it is. But not much of one. Unlike floating containers that are at or just below the surface, a boat that you could sink (so exclude Gunboats, Pogo's, etc.) is going to float with a substantial amount of freeboard, or eventually sink on its own.

[Pelagic]

I would scuttle that idea as a rationalisation of your decision to abandon.

Focus on safely abandoning or stay onboard and salvage your 'non sinking' boat.

If she survives without you then it could be an asset to someone out there and a reminder to ALL to keep a proper lookout!

Or are you afraid it will fall into enemy hands?[emoji79]

[robert sailor]

For those of you that think you couldn't hit an a manned sailboat you haven't done a night watch on a moon less night, it would be very easy to hit at night. Scuttling your boat mmm I would never leave the boat unless it was sinking and I guess it wouldn't be an issue.

[Eder]

I beg to differ...

[JPA Cate]

We used to stay with the ship because it was our best chance for survival. People with medical issues lived--or died. One planned only to leave a ship when it was already sinking, by stepping up into a life raft, if one carried one.

IMNSHO, some people activate their EPIRBS for inadequate causes, mostly due to lack of fix-it abilities. I, personally, think the loss of the Rebel Heart was inevitable, the boat was self-destructing, due to structural issues not adequately addressed prior to departure, and, retrieval of it next to, if not, impossible. Blue Pearl was sinking. When the boat's already sinking, you don't have to scuttle it.

Even the first answer to the issue mentions the fact that some boats won't sink. If that's so, there may be tangly bits about them, parts of masts, and rigging wires, as well as har things to hit, and bits of them will join the flotsam in the gyres for years to come. But how likely is it really, to encounter such a wreck?

A64pilot posed an interesting possibility, boat's excellent, singlehander has to be removed because he's broken, but has insurance, I guess if they'll come out 25 miles and slowly tow the boat back, maybe -- like, why not? That's a pretty long tow, and there are lots of problems with towing sailboats, but there are cases of sailboats towing sailboats for fairly long ways. It relies on the towers knowing what they're doing, which isn't always the case. Have met people who both sleep at night, no watch kept at night. Have run up on unlit boats at night, having to change course to pass safely, led to talk about tossing a loaf of fresh baked bread in their cockpit, or something that could have broken on their boat. It's scary to run up on an unlit boat, and you get angry when it happens.

I can easily imagine why coastal cruisers might have different ideas about the issue than ocean crossers, who are often too far away for an easy rescue attempt. I remember when Toni Bullimore was rescued, after losing the keel, the ship with the helicopter had to get closer, before they could send the helicopter, as he was out of range.

The Vendee Globe guys, they plan to fix their boats if they break, too, nurse them to somewhere safe. This means stopping water ingress, and then repairing whatever broke, with what one has to hand, and that must be some very interesting planning!

Thanks for all your responses so far.



Ann

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Eder

Why scuttle....we all keep watches...maybe we can win the lotto?

Why scuttle? difficulty of recovery, for one, assuming the reason the vessel was abandoned was that it was broken. Also, a partly sunken boat would be very difficult to spot on a dark night. Weather may not permit a rescue, either.

A few years ago, Jim and I watched a Beneteau that had lost it's keel towed in to harbor. They were able to tow it at maybe 1.5 knots, and it was sheering around like a mad thing. Any tow line needs to be really long, and strong, and your attatchment points may not be up to helping someone by towing them.

Ann

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

For those of you that think you couldn't hit an a manned sailboat you haven't done a night watch on a moon less night, it would be very easy to hit at night.

Robert, did you mean 'unmanned' ?

If Yes...
The weakness in that logic is that you are assuming the other boat if manned would somehow be easier to see.

The practical onus is only on your boat to maintain a proper lookout.

On a moonless night at sea, my radar would definitely be on.

[SecondBase]

Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen

I think by default scuttle should be the SOP.

Edit - should note that you can only really intentionally scuttle a monohull.

I see your point but I guess it depends on the definition of the word scuttle. For a plastic catamaran, even a can of dinghy gas or a flare would likely sink it. I suspect it would burn to the waterline with the engines' weight then pulling the now separated amas under. This approach would be an environmental mess.

Lots to consider and I'm not sure which is worse given a tough situation - is it a risk to human life from a floating hazard plus a possible future onshore spill or an immediate and polluting offshore spill but removing the hazard to others lives? Which is the least bad alternative?

So here here is a potentially better approach and one that could have helped AWW.

The coast guard already does a great job dropping auxiliary pumps. Let's take that a step further -- they could procure a "sat AIS with 30 day battery". They ***as a Standard Operating Procedure*** leave a long-term transceiver on ALL abandoned vessels--marking the hazard, protecting the environment, blocking a salvage claim, easing recovery etc etc and even picking up a lien on say 10% of the vessel's value in return.

If that had been done with the lost gunboat the owner, the insurer, other mariners and even the coast guard would have all come out ahead financially. If this had been done with AWW's boat he would've towed it into port on day 5 (pretending he was rescued by USCG).

Just give any of our fine coast guard NCOs the needed electronic devices, a big battery 2 coat hangers and 4 rolls of duct tape and an order to get it done by tomorrow. I guarantee you he or she will build you that portable 30 day life SAT-AIS.

Obviously our musty 400 year old law of the sea also needs to get rewritten but at some point we need to catch up with this technology that is racing ahead of societies ability to keep up and apply it to the problems at hand.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Robert, did you mean 'unmanned' ?

If Yes...
The weakness in that logic is that you are assuming the other boat if manned would somehow be easier to see.

The practical onus is only on your boat to maintain a proper lookout.

On a moonless night at sea, my radar would definitely be on.

I hear ya. I guess I have put on so many miles pre radar that I know what I can see at night and what I can't. I actually don't leave radar on all night, between the autopilot, lights etc. It's already a big suck on electricity. I use it but I don't rely on it plus if the scuttled vessel had lost its rig you may not even pick it up depending on your radar. And finally, yes, I meant to type unmanned. I am costantly trYing to get used to this little tablet and I guess I'm a loser when it comes to these little buggers.

[roland stockham]

If you are abandoning ship I reckon 9 time out of ten you will have no choice because - Fire, to risky to go below and it's going to burn to the waterline and sink anyway! - sinking, well your sinking anyway! - Collision, either its bad enough that your sinking or the boat is unrecoverable or it's not bad enough and your salvaging. - Bad weather, if your not sinking stay with the boat. - Plague, e.g. the whole crew is sick, salvage crew might want to fumigate before bringing the boat to shore if it is not a tow job. Impossible (i.e. severe flooding), you can't get at any means of scuttling anyway.
So what is left. If the crew are unable to bring the boat to shore but the boat is serviceable or at least towable but the salvage is uneconomic. Is there a choice? Well your not coming back for it and how likely is it that anyone else will if it's going to cost more than the boat is worth?
So if you abandon a boat that is likely to stay afloat long enough to be a hazard and you think you have the choice as to whether to scuttle should you really be abandoning her anyway?

[Captain Denis]

Scuttle! That word should not exist in marine terms for cruising boaters. My training may be wrong but I learned that, the safer way is to never abandon a floating boat. You should not take refuge into your prepared life raft until the boat sink from under you. Then, you may cut off the line to the life raft and watch you ex-boat sink. No need to use the term scuttle in your report which your insurance company may not like!

[bailsout]

Sailing at night what good is a watch if there is a submerged container in your path.

[a64pilot]

Boats are towed and are done so for longer distances than you may think.
I was just last weekend I was told about a BIG MY that had been struck by lightning in the Bahamas and due to it's computer controlled engines, the props were pulled and it towed back to the US.
The day that family lost their lives off the West coast of Fl last Summer I was out there playing games with this tug that was towing a huge mostly completed home built Catamaran. I say playing games cause I'd change course and he would change course too to keep us on a collision course.
Now of course if your out in the middle of the Ocean like Rebel Heart was, different story, so of course it depends

[Pelagic]

Bailsout that logic sounds like a cop out