Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Actually in this case the "Techie Propaganda Bull" aka EPIRB was found pretty early on without any problem at all. Shame Jay was not attached to it but that is not the fault of the techo stuff

LOL... was not talking about the EPIRB mate... though even that's no safe bet either... Grain de Soliel for example off the Azores...
I was referring to the 'Read a paper in Baghdad over someone's shoulder while sitting at a computer in Florida' etc...
Sorry guys... but once your 'out there' the odds are 50/50 of survival.. how many stories of recovery are posted on here... vs how many are not rescued...
And those rescued are usually not in any real danger... just had enough of the washing machine and want to go home...
But the sinking's... never had a 'personal experience' post in my memory on here of someone being rescued after their boat sank..
I remember listening to a Mayday relay on a delivery a couple of years back with a hysterical solo sailor saying his boat was sinking 50 miles of the W Portuguese coast... he got heli'd off eventually after about 7 ships and 4 yachts diverted to his position... the boat was a regular Nav Warning for the next couple of days till it moved W out of the shipping lanes... the actual sinkings are a different story... usually they are found.. eventually... dead in their rafts

[s/v Jedi]

What this accident shows is that when you want your boat to be found efficiently, you should just spent some (gasp) MONEY and install an AIS transponder. If you don't do that, count on not being found.

I don't think it would have saved Jay; I know for sure he would have been found within seconds of the SAR aircraft arriving on AIS coordinates.

There are so many who claim to despise AIS transponders and I hope this makes them rethink that POV.

[mbianka]

Originally Posted by pilotdave

I've been following these threads closely. My sympathies for all those close to the lost sailor. My contribution is in the aerial search side. I'm a pilot that has done searches. I fly over water alot. I can tell you that if there are any whitecaps it's virtually impossible to see a drifting sailboat. The only way to see a smallish boat in those conditions is if it is leaving a wake. Spotting a drifting boat amidst whitecaps is nearly impossible...

That certainly makes sense but, apparently Jay's boat was still under sail and moving that's how it landed on the Cuban shore.

[svHyLyte]

Originally Posted by pilotdave

I've been following these threads closely. My sympathies for all those close to the lost sailor. My contribution is in the aerial search side. I'm a pilot that has done searches. I fly over water alot. I can tell you that if there are any whitecaps it's virtually impossible to see a drifting sailboat. The only way to see a smallish boat in those conditions is if it is leaving a wake. Spotting a drifting boat amidst whitecaps is nearly impossible...

One way to improve one's odds it to carry a Safety Streamer that floats on the surface along a boat, raft or MOB's line of drift. Some of these devices include LED's.

https://tslresponse.files.wordpress....05/slide10.jpg

[Kettlewell]

Though in this case it isn't clear AIS would have done anything. The EPIRB was what alerted authorities and it was located 30+ miles north of Key West--we have no idea if the boat was within VHF radio range of that position when the search and rescue folks found the EPIRB. AIS doesn't track vessels that are out of VHF range. I suppose that range is pretty good when aircraft are involved, but still there is a limit. If the EPIRB had stayed with the boat it would have been found. So in this case a better tether would have been the technological fix.

Also, another thing is that a fairly common emergency situation is losing the mast and the VHF antenna goes with it. Sure, AIS is another way to be found, but I'm not sure its function provides that much more than a standard VHF radio and an EPIRB.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Also, another thing is that a fairly common emergency situation is losing the mast and the VHF antenna goes with it. Sure, AIS is another way to be found, but I'm not sure its function provides that much more than a standard VHF radio and an EPIRB.

Best argument for having AIS on a pushpit mounted antenna, trade range for redundancy

[s/v Jedi]

An emergency VHF antenna costs a couple of dollars. Even a piece of wire will work good enough to talk to the SAR plane, as will every handheld.

[SaltyMonkey]

Honestly, I'm not sure how an AIS would have helped in this case, except find the victim's body a little early -- by the time they would have got there.

AIS is certainly a nice have, though. As 'in range' means it would show up on local ships and SAR plane radar in the area, not just shore-side.

[s/v Jedi]

A SAR plane has VHF range for many hundreds of miles. The VHF traffic station that once (good old days) operated from Saba, serviced shipping for the whole East Caribbean; their antenna on top of the mountain.

And that is without the satellite AIS tracking which is fully operational on a global level.

It's easy to come up with excuses but it is very hard to come up with valid ones except the cost and rather be lost instead of found. I think Ray's family would disagree with that and so will most relatives and friends of sailors lost at sea.

I would go as far to state that not having the tracking device aboard to be found is egoistic.

[nimblemotors]

An EPIRB is designed to locate someone in trouble. AIS is NOT.

The coast guard could give out free EPIRBs and I'll bet it would save them money given the cost of fuel for a helicopter in a single SAR.
Here in Sac, the firestation will loan lifejackets free to boaters.
To think cost doesn't matter makes sense to one with a 64ft boat,
perhaps it matters to the 23ft boat guy wanting to go from seattle to portland.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

A SAR plane has VHF range for many hundreds of miles. The VHF traffic station that once (good old days) operated from Saba, serviced shipping for the whole East Caribbean; their antenna on top of the mountain.

And that is without the satellite AIS tracking which is fully operational on a global level.

It's easy to come up with excuses but it is very hard to come up with valid ones except the cost and rather be lost instead of found. I think Ray's family would disagree with that and so will most relatives and friends of sailors lost at sea.

I would go as far to state that not having the tracking device aboard to be found is egoistic.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

An EPIRB is designed to locate someone in trouble. AIS is NOT.

The coast guard could give out free EPIRBs and I'll bet it would save them money given the cost of fuel for a helicopter in a single SAR.
Here in Sac, the firestation will loan lifejackets free to boaters.
To think cost doesn't matter makes sense to one with a 64ft boat,
perhaps it matters to the 23ft boat guy wanting to go from seattle to portland.

I clearly stated that added cost is the only valid argument against an AIS transponder. Why do you confirm that and then attack me on this? You should disagree with me before you attack

If you want to be found by SAR but can't afford a transponder, then stop going out to bars for a month... or whatever else money goes to. If that is not possible, take a weekend job for a month. Me, with my 64' boat, also had to earn every dime I have with hard work. I was the 23ft boat guy too, make no mistake, I know exactly how it's like.

[foolishsailor]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

but can't afford a transponder, then stop going out to bars for a month... or whatever else money goes to. If that is not possible, take a weekend job for a month. Me, with my 64' boat, also had to earn every dime I have with hard work. I was the 23ft boat guy too, make no mistake, I know exactly how it's like.

+1

True on so many levels and not just for this topic

[nimblemotors]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I clearly stated that added cost is the only valid argument against an AIS transponder. Why do you confirm that and then attack me on this? You should disagree with me before you attack

If you want to be found by SAR but can't afford a transponder, then stop going out to bars for a month... or whatever else money goes to. If that is not possible, take a weekend job for a month. Me, with my 64' boat, also had to earn every dime I have with hard work. I was the 23ft boat guy too, make no mistake, I know exactly how it's like.

It isn't cost, I said AIS is not for rescue, don't buy it for rescue.
If you are saying don't borrow an Epirb, but work extra hours or not eat this month to buy an AIS, I would say that is bad advice.
Otherwise, I don't know what you are saying.

Nice boat, don't really care if you dug ditches for 30 years or dad gave it to you, doesn't change that AIS is not for rescue, and epirbs should be free or loaned in my opinion.

AIS would not have saved Jay, epirb would have if it was attached properly, at least found sooner.

If he actually wanted to be found, then I think the best theory is he put the epirb on his person, and then the boom knocked him off the boat, the epirb was pulled away from him (a pocket?), he drowned and the boat sailed itself to cuba. If that is the case, the lesson to learn is securely attach your epirb, (and maybe don't let a boom smack you).
The other thing is don't paint your boat white.

Do we know if an autopsy will be done? Might help a bit.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

guy wanting to go from seattle to portland.

Or along the Florida Keys.

[Dennis.G]

The man had exactly the equipment he needed to notify and guide rescuers to him and his boat - an EPIRB.

This is much more than many people have.

How the EPIRB got separated from the boat is a mistery. Would be good if we could solve mistery and all learn from any mistake that may have taken place.

Most likely having the EPIRB with boat would only have made the recovery of his body happen faster and not really change what matters.

RIP