HOW LONG TILL YOU TURN?

[CaptFrankM]

As a random question, if you are the stand on vessel in a COLREGS situation, how long do you personally wait before instituting an avoidance maneuver on your own?

I realize that this is dependent on a lot of factors (relative speed, relative size, relative distance at moment of sighting, etc) but my underlying question, I guess, is do you tend to move at the first possible moment that you can or do you wait for awhile to see what develops?

And, yes, I know about watching the approaching vessel over a stanchion or shroud and waiting to see if it is going to move forward or backwards, relative to that spot.

This is just sort of an informal poll to see what others are doing. Just to put my cards on the table, I tend to wait awhile, unless it is a large power cruiser with no one at the helm (yeah, it has happened - more than once). In that case, I am out of there!

[skipmac]

As the stand on vessel you are required to maintain course and speed until it is clear that the give way vessel is not going to give way, thus causing a risk of a collision.

This to me would mean not to turn at the first possible moment. At the same time don't wait until it's too late to prevent the collision. Those are the two extremes so the question is where in between these extremes does one alter course.

I look at it from the point of view of how long I can safely wait to alter course instead of how soon I can. For me that would when I have enough time to make my course or speed change but still have time for another change if the other boat does something at the last minute.

[SV Bacchus]

Originally Posted by skipmac

As the stand on vessel you are required to maintain course and speed until it is clear that the give way vessel is not going to give way, thus causing a risk of a collision.

I look at it from the point of view of how long I can safely wait to alter course instead of how soon I can.

This is my stance as well.

[Lodesman]

What Skipmac said. I like to give enough time for the give way vessel to give way and if necessary for me to sound 5 short, before I bail out.

[bobnlesley]

Originally Posted by skipmac

...not to turn at the first possible moment. At the same time don't wait until it's too late to prevent the collision. Those are the two extremes so the question is where in between these extremes does one alter course.

That works for me too, though with one exception and I wish more helmsmen would consider it, which is when it'll be easier/better if i was the one to move, in which case I go early.
A prime example: I am broad reaching on a starboard tack with another sailboat approaching close hauled on a port-tack, I might be the 'stand on vessel' but for me to swing 15-20 degrees one way or the other is no real effort and will make no significant difference to my passage time, whereas bearing away to give me precedence might make a major difference to that close hauled boat clearing the next headland or similar.

[sailorboy1]

If I have room and are going to turn I do it early enough that the move is apparent to the other boat and way before the game of chicken "I'm standing on" thinking starts. The last thing I want is for him to suddenly wake up and make a sudden turn that makes the thing worst.

[CLady]

It is also good to try to make radio contact to secure agreement of the other vessel's intentions. If no radio response to your hailing, then making course changes to avoid collision would be next.

[captain465]

I am surprised that no one suggests slowing or stopping, If under sail, spill the wind from the sails, if under power, reduce throttle and go to neutral if necessary. I would do either before a course change.

[boeing1]

agree with Skipmac post,

[bvisailing32]

lots of gray area here, but I am going to avoid a collision while operating in accordance with the colregs......

1. Stand watch and pay attention to all traffic around you.

2. Immedaitely, I check for a collision bearing.

3. Who has the right of way. Follow the colregs.

4.. Is the skipper of the other vessel even paying attention, is he on auto pilot or hand steering. If he is a sailing vessel is he on a proper point of sail, sails trimmed. does he know what he is doing, and what are the chances he knows or understands the right of way regs.

If a sailing vessel, is he also under power making him a power boat.

5. In power boat cases is he having a drink, facing aft, on auto pilot and chumming the bikini wearing blonde laying out on the aft deck.

Right of way rules, in this case, might be good for the insurance company, but for the safety of my my vessel or his. They have no clue.

6. In this case I will make an early and ample turn to his stern . and as we are approaching, I will also signal him that I am turning. Then I will come back to a moderate course that will take me clear of him.

7. I am not going to luff up my sails, as I will be in irons and have loss of control of steering, sheets snapping, sails luffing, jib back winding. boom banging, etc. especially since we are on the wind. I want full control of my boat to maneuver as necessary.

8. Normal crossing situation, with an alert skipper, sail to sail, I will hold my course and speed if I am stand on. However, not to the point of extremis, where both vessels may try to evade at the last second. That could be disasterous to both vessels and the crews.

9. Also, you can make a sound signal if you are turning, one short blast I AM turning to stb.......two shorts, I am turning to port. However, an un-knowledgeable boat operator will not know what those sound signals mean.

10. As a sailor, I am topside, so when it comes to other sail or motor vessel traffic, I am at the helm, and not running below to try and hail the other vessel on VHF 16. I am remaining top side and avoiding any collision.

11. As to a VLCC, thousands of tons, making mucho knots, that is not constrained to a traffic lane, I will see him coming from quite a distance and begin checking collision bearings . If it looks like a collision bearing, I will call him on the VHF with my intentions. Plus, I want his bridge watch to know that we are out there.

In a crossing situation, I will plan to take him on his stern.

Blowing threats over the VHF, that I am a sailing vessel, and he is power, and he must change course for my 5 knot super yacht is assinine.

Same goes for vessels constrained to a traffic lane, just take them on the stern and they haul okole and pass swiftly and no problem exists. Also, we cross that traffic lane and the separation zone as quickly and direct as possible.

The problem that I see with pleasure vessels, sail or power, at sea or in busy harbors are operators of some of those vessels do not know, or care about rules of the road, or are even paying attention to the developing situation.

A good plan, for every ones safety , as to the skipper, is his or hers nautical knowledge, experience, knowing the colregs, alertness, thinking and planning ahead, respect, and an ample amount of common sense.

If those qualities are lacking, avoiding a collision is up to you.

[Suijin]

I'm with Skipmac but Bob makes a good point for crossing situations when reaching or close hauled and the wind is up. It's much easier to bear off or up 10 degrees when you're a ways off than it is to take more extreme action up close and personal.

I will often adjust my course early to either make it clear that I'm going to pass in front, or to dip, and stand on from there. That is particularly true if when I'm single handing which is most of the time. If I can take early action that avoids a close encounter and makes it a moot point, I will. But it has to be early enough that it does not give the other boat doubt about my intentions and exacerbate the situation. There is virtue in being predictable and consistent.

[TrentePieds]

II's not a question of "how long" at all. It is merely a question of adhering to COLREGS. #17 (iirc) REQUIRES THAT YOU DON'T TURN - until it becomes apparent TO YOU that the "give way" vessel is not giving way. Just exactly when that will happen depends on many factors and the moment that it "becomes apparent" is determined solely on the basis of YOUR JUDGEMENT.

When I've got a 20K ton ferry coming out of Active Pass on my port bow at 20 knots, the decision moment is the moment I see him. I know, and he knows, that he is GWV, but why would I insist on that when by coming to my reciprocal, I am clearly saying "After you, Sir!"

But the point is rather moot since whenever I'm near known tracks of ferries and such, I always maintain so much separation that it never could come to a COLREGs situation.

When I am "stand on" in relation to another pleasure boat I cleave to COLREGS, but in these waters teaming with commercial vessels "maneuvering with difficulty in a narrow channel" I believe that we Sunday-sailors owe it to the commercial boys never to get in their way, let alone insisting on being "stand on" when early action on our part precludes COLREGS even coming into play.

TP

[Lionelsole]

Originally Posted by captain465

I am surprised that no one suggests slowing or stopping, If under sail, spill the wind from the sails, if under power, reduce throttle and go to neutral if necessary. I would do either before a course change.

That might comply with 'early, substantial ' but might not be obvious to the other boat. A 30 degree course alteration probably would be.

[doublewide]

Rule 17
read parts a and b with close attention to the words, "may" and "shall."

"May" means the master has the option (is permitted under the rules) to maneuver.
"Shall" means the master is obligated to maneuver.

When may one maneuver? When it becomes apparent that the give-way vessel is not taking measures to avoid collision.

When shall (must) one maneuver? When action by the give-way vessel alone cannot avoid collision.

I think one is wise to maneuver using the "may" reason rather than the "shall" reason, don't you?

And also, SOUND THE DANGER SIGNAL

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by bobnlesley

That works for me too, though with one exception and I wish more helmsmen would consider it, which is when it'll be easier/better if i was the one to move, in which case I go early.
A prime example: I am broad reaching on a starboard tack with another sailboat approaching close hauled on a port-tack, I might be the 'stand on vessel' but for me to swing 15-20 degrees one way or the other is no real effort and will make no significant difference to my passage time, whereas bearing away to give me precedence might make a major difference to that close hauled boat clearing the next headland or similar.