Going in to get MOB

[Snore]

Originally Posted by DanielI

Bottom line: too much of a “there are no accidents” attitude can lead to failure to prepare for accidents. Likewise, too much accident preparation can lead people to be sloppy because they think they can recover to easily. Real life, and real safety, requires a balance.

Which is why I really appreciate this discussion.

We shall respectfully disagree. You presume too much. I have a plan and displayed it in my original post.

When I “had a real job”, I ran a utility field operation. In an industry where safety is measured in days. We went 132 THOUSAND man-days without a lost time injury. We did this while increasing worker productivity. A large part, the result of safety measures. So dedicated professionals can and do follow reasonable safety rules. Quite obviously, if safety rules are oppressive it will not work. For example you require folks to clip in wheelie sitting mid ocean becalmed, they will rebel and will not be adhered to. But clipping in at night or when things are bumpy, or when going forward, is very reasonable.

Need more proof? Neither OSHA, nor insurance companies, nor law enforcement use the word “accident”. The word accident makes it sound like the event was unavoidable. Almost all injuries are avoidable. For example, an injury from a failed line is usually avoidable. If a properly loaded new line fails mid-run, that is unavoidable. But an old jib sheet that showed signs of chafe through that fails? That is avoidable. (Rhetorical question) How often do new lines fail?

Need more proof? Watch a electrical lineman work on overhead lines, they meticulously follow a set of procedures to avoid getting killed. This reference and this thread does not really apply to sailing waters like Tampa Bay. This reference really applies when ‘out there’. It is then that your crew are in a risky situation.

I know there are other delivery guys who are not this conservative. That is there choice.

My position is immovable. It is the result of a lifetime of working in risky environments. It is the result of reading about every fatal incident both in my prior and current profession.

This conservative attitude probably costs me a delivery or two. That is fine with me. I never want to be in the position described in this thread.

As I opened my post, we can respectfully disagree.

[goboatingnow]

My own view is that MOB recovery must work for the weakest least skilled adult person left on board , if they don’t they are largely superfluous

Fancy MOB sailing techniques will only work if the remaining adult person , under stress , can manage the sails. For many women partners that could be a significant struggle and there is a danger that in dropping sails , she goes over

Then you have MOB techniques
I urge people to try practicing with a weighted Human dummy (ours was called “ dead Fred “.

In my opinion if you are an adult male and incapacitated in the water , and it’s a typical female partner remaining on board , you will mostly likely drown with outside help

All the fancy bits of kits are largely useless in my opinion unless every week your partner practices with them

The key is don’t fall over


I’ve raised kids on boats , lifejackets on when on deck, no exceptions ( we used water skiing buoyancy aids as they swam in them )

In 15 years of their presence including big cold water lakes ( 27 miles by 7 ) charters in many parts of the world, 2 yachts , only once did one of them fall in unintentionally

This was at night crossing a raft of boats , her jacket inflated and saved her , because no one saw her fall in , and it was pitch dark

Unless a kid is incapacitated , don’t jump in ( and I disagree a wife will simply launch herself over the side )

The biggest danger were their friends ( guests ) that were not boat aware , they were a nightmare to keep safe.

Sadly as the chairman of a lifeboat station , I had the onerous duty of talking to spouses of drowned men , I have also had two cases were the male adult rescuer drowned in an attempt to rescue their partner ( one partner survived , one drowned )

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

. . . In my opinion if you are an adult male and incapacitated in the water , and it’s a typical female partner remaining on board , you will mostly likely drown with outside help . . .

I think that's actually an understatement. If you go overboard incapacitated because you hit your head or whatever, you're dead, period. Only in miraculous cases where there is a well-trained able bodied person on board and the weather is calm do you have even the slightest chance.


If you go overboard tethered to the boat, you're dead. I keep a hooked tether-cutting knife in my life jacket, but I don't think I would have a snowball's chance in hell of actually using it. Only in a miraculous case where a well trained able bodied person INSTANTLY stops the boat and hauls you back, do you have even a slight chance of surviving. Tethers are worse then useless if they are long enough to let you go over the side. Talk about a false sense of security.



If you go overboard NOT incapacitated, NOT tethered, and you've got your AIS/DSC MOB beacon on you, and you have an alert well trained person at the helm, and on your boat you have a well worked-out way to haul an MOB back on board, then that's somewhat different. Especially if you're in your dry suit.



But however you cut it, MOB is terrifying, especially in the cold waters where I sail.

[johnn33]

You might Google swimmer of the watch
John

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by NedX

when someone goes in the water and realizes too far from safety that they aren't as strong a swimmer as they thought/used to be/were when they were a kid.

Agreed. Look at RFK's grand-daughter who drowned simply trying to save a canoe floating away from the shore in an offshore breeze.

A few years ago, I overheard a mayday where a guy simply jumped to cool down and underestimated the current. He attempted to swim to a nearby island and drowned. His wife was left on the boat watching with no idea how to run the boat.

[dannc]

Regarding recognizing a drawing victim, watch this video. Yes, it is in a pool which makes it harder to see but that is educational as well.

There used to be a PDF about drowning put out by the USCG. It has disappeared from the link I had but here are some key points regarding drowning.

Characteristics of the Instinctive Drowning Response:
1. Except in rare circumstances, drowning people are physiologically unable to call out for help. The respiratory system was designed for breathing. Speech is the secondary, or overlaid, function. Breathing must be fulfilled, before speech occurs.
2. Drowning people's mouths alternately sink below and reappear above the surface of the water. The mouths of drowning people are not above the surface of the water long enough for them to exhale, inhale, and call out for help. When the drowning people's mouths are above the surface, they exhale and inhale quickly as their mouths start to sink below the surface of the water.
3. Drowning people cannot wave for help. Nature instinctively forces them to extend their arms laterally and press down on the water surface. Pressing down on the surface of the water, permits drowning people to leverage their bodies so they can lift their mouths out of the water to breathe.
4. Throughout the Instinctive Drowning Response, drowning people cannot voluntarily control their arm movements. Physiologically, drowning people who are struggling on the surface of the water cannot stop drowning and perform voluntary movements such as waving for help, moving toward a rescuer, or reaching out for a piece of rescue equipment.
5. From beginning to end of the Instinctive Drowning Response people's bodies remain upright in the water, with no evidence of a supporting kick. Unless rescued by a trained lifeguard, these drowning people can only struggle on the surface of the water from 20 to 60 seconds before submersion occurs.

https://youtu.be/L0KTqPloUiU

From a boat perspective, if the MOB is NOT showing the Instinctive Drowning Response, one has a bit of time. If they ARE showing the response, rescue has to be done in 20-60 seconds.

Later,
Dan

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Shrew

Agreed. Look at RFK's grand-daughter who drowned simply trying to save a canoe floating away from the shore in an offshore breeze....

I was kayaking near there that day. Near gale conditions that seemed calm near shore. It was rough and exhausting/very challenging in a kayak for an experienced paddler with a spray skirt and dry suit. Impossible conditions for a canoe and a parent/child combo. I really had to hit the gas to get back in. Cool water too. I heard about this after I got home.


This whole thread is about judging the situation and conditions, and knowing yourself.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by dannc

Yes, it should become instinct, but I have seen people with lots of training, training that has to be passed at least once a year, training they have done for years, and often decades, still f..... up when the poo hits the fan. One can train, train and train, as one should, but under pressure, people can fail.

Really nothing one can do but train, train and train which includes thinking about various scenarios, like this discussion, to prepare for the worst case.

Later,
Dan

Dan, I think you expressed my concern. Some people just can't handle a stressful situation at the drop of a hat. Not inferring training is bad but it is an anticipated situation.

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Dan, I think you expressed my concern. Some people just can't handle a stressful situation at the drop of a hat. Not inferring training is bad but it is an anticipated situation.

Training (repetition) hopefully reinforces a sequence of actions without thought. It's when a variable is thrown in that changes the situation to one we haven't trained for.

Take a simple example (because I see it all the time), how many times have you seen someone knock over a glass and stare at it for 4-6 seconds. Even adults.....I find myself having to say "Quick, go grab a towel or a rag". (Sure I could do it, but why am I picking up your mess??). I see the wheels turning (what happened? How did this happen? etc.) All that matters is containment at that point.

[seabreez]

Originally Posted by DanielI

The MOB thread got me thinking about this question: under what circumstances, if ever, is it appropriate to go in after a MOB? (I’m assuming a crew of more than 2).

So, the “never go in after an MOB” rule might have exceptions. Anyone want to chime in with what the guidelines are?

31years and 716 rescues behind me when I left. What I will tell you is never never go in to get a MOB. I did it once and I will never do it again. You have to practice doing this MOB procedure with what you have on your vessel. If single handed to perform the task call MAYDAY for MOB. Proceed to the limit of your abilities for the situation. Use ring buoy, docking poles, hooks etc. to try and hook a person back towards or in the boat. First thing to do is put on lifejackets and try a recovery again. The difficulty increases. Then the person in the drink might pull you in... so tie yourself to prevent this. When getting close to the person in the drink, throw a life ring, hand on to the end and if the MOB grabs the life ring then pull towards the boat and assist to re-board, use ladders, booms and winches to lift, or multiple persons to lift the weight that is involved. If unconcious tie a line under the shoulders to lift. If you reach the limit where you cannot proceed any further, stop assess and plan you next move or wait until you can get help from other boaters. The best advice I can give you is practice with you regular crew and practice this with newcomers when setting out on long passages. This safety procedure should be in your trip sailing plan.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Shrew

Training (repetition) hopefully reinforces a sequence of actions without thought. It's when a variable is thrown in that changes the situation to one we haven't trained for.

Take a simple example (because I see it all the time), how many times have you seen someone knock over a glass and stare at it for 4-6 seconds. Even adults.....I find myself having to say "Quick, go grab a towel or a rag". (Sure I could do it, but why am I picking up your mess??). I see the wheels turning (what happened? How did this happen? etc.) All that matters is containment at that point.

Different people are more or less capable of making quick decisions and acting quickly in an emergency, it is true. Proper training and practice can help a whole lot, though, even in a situation with an odd variable thrown in. Having a well learned sequence of actions puts you ahead of the game even if you have to adapt some part of it on the fly. In fact, good training and practice probably puts you ahead of the game even for a situation you are totally unprepared for -- because you have at least practice in executing a rapid sequence of SOME actions. You are then used to acting, instead of standing there and thinking "What do I do? What do I do?".

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Different people are more or less capable of making quick decisions and acting quickly in an emergency, it is true. Proper training and practice can help a whole lot, though, even in a situation with an odd variable thrown in.

An old military aphorism: No plan survives contact with the enemy.
Yet "Immediate Action Drills" are a core part of military training.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by StuM

An old military aphorism: No plan survives contact with the enemy.
Yet "Immediate Action Drills" are a core part of military training.

Exactly.

[Manateeman]

Lifeguard training or water safety instructor training is an excellent course for any captain and crew. A drowning person will try to climb up on you and the course will teach you how not to become another person drowning.
PADI rescue diver course will increase your skill set.
The USCG has a Rescue Swimmer course and if you can find someone who was qualified, they will have a lot to teach you. I’ll see if I can find what is available from this course for forum members.
Controlling your breathing in the first minute of cold water takes training under the watchful eyes of very experienced people and should never be attempted without this. Cold water diving in a dry suit is not something you begin in very cold water. You can practice and practice getting into your Gumby suit till you feel safe and then something goes wrong and cold water on your face or down your neck hits you and only repeated training will save you then.
Look around at other boats and see how many have a way of getting back on board without any assistance. Natalie Wood didn’t die sailing offshore. It seems a far more realistic scenario..drowning in the harbor at night....the lesson of which, few seem to have understood.
Never jump in for a mob. Never? A most silly post .
The person who jumps out of a USCG helicopter is the Rescue Swimmer... a highly trained and respected professional. Do everything to insure your vessel never requires their assistance and learn what you can and cannot do if you decide to jump in feet first.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his “XXXXL Gumby suit size” manatees

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Don C L

as a river guide we did practice this in the situation where you'd be tethered to rescuers ashore and you'd be bringing a flotation device and line with you.

Ah yes. The "live bait" rescue, often contemplated, rarely performed.