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Old 14-10-2019, 12:59   #16
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Re: Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

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Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
If he had anchored in Tenacatita or Melaque, the same thing would have happened without any ferries.







Melaque on a calm day

exactly... 3 - 6 ft aka 2-3 meter swells is constant...
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Old 14-10-2019, 13:01   #17
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Re: Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

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Mike, the op of this thread doesn't seem in any way related to the people who produced the video. He even claims that he found it shocking that it claims most people don't use a snubber. ...
Perhaps Iím being to grouchy Gaucho, but dreugeís post certainly fits the pattern of people just using CF as a means of advertising their videos. But even if thatís not what is happening here, my point is that CF is a discussion forum. If you want to discuss snubber use, then do so. By all means use external sources to support your discussion point, but make the point here.

All the OP did was link to a video and say "Here is a nice video that should convince anyone to use snubbers and not rely on a windlass to hold the chain.Ē SoÖ what does the video show that should convince everyone to use snubbers? I still donít know b/c I havenít watched the video. Tell me. Write it out here Ö discuss it.
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Old 14-10-2019, 13:15   #18
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Re: Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

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I didn't watch the video because if they say "very very few people actually use a snubber" then they are idiots and liars who people shouldn't listen to. Sounds more like Idiot with Boat Meets UTube
Agreed, they are trying to defend their not so prudent actions that caused them to lose their boat. On our last two cruises, it was rare to see any vessel with a chain rode not using snubbers.
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Old 14-10-2019, 13:43   #19
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Re: Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

I went back to watch this horrible video. Two more boats full of people who donít know what they are doing, at least one of which is begging for money on Patreon. Bad data over and over. No understanding of so very many things including basic physics. They should not cross the street by themselves. We need a new set of lights and day shapes for ďI am an idiot.Ē I feel bad for the loss but Sea Dog has only himself to blame.
The video itself is a train wreck. After a while you canít believe you are participating. Itís like going to a retsina tasting. Who tastes different sorts of paint thinner to see what they are like? Jeepers.
The lesson to be learned here is simple: you canít fix stupid.
I do think the salvage guys did a good job.
Now who is going to pay me for 17:26?
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Old 14-10-2019, 13:47   #20
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Re: Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

Certainly it is true that most boats use "snubbers", and it is also true that many, maybe even most, use totally inadequate snubbers.

A 5 or 6 foot length of line is NOT a snubber. Under a surging load it might stretch a total of 5 or 6 inches, which is a joke. A REAL snubber must be LONG, 20 or 30 feet to realistically absorb wave and surge energy. If you figure the line will need to absorb a surge of 3 feet, and will stretch about 15% of it's length, you can do the math...

It doesn't matter how deep that water is, or how big the boat is, or how much scope you have out.
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Old 14-10-2019, 14:08   #21
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Re: Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
exactly... 3 - 6 ft aka 2-3 meter swells is constant...
Might wanna check your math, Zee...

But the beach break in Melaque is where we experienced our only dinghy capsize in our boating history... right in front of Los Pelicanos at happy hour. A great floor show for the gathered cruisers and locals!

Jim
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Old 14-10-2019, 14:20   #22
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Re: Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

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....This is really bad for those watching youtube sailing videos that don't visit more mature sources such as CF, that will go away with that wrong information....
I donít disagree with anything youíve written, but I will say that anyone who gets anchoring lessons from one YouTube video and then thinks they know how to anchor, would get what they deserve. Itís the internet. We should assume the information is incorrect unless verified.
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Old 14-10-2019, 14:28   #23
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Re: Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

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I donít disagree with anything youíve written, but I will say that anyone who gets anchoring lessons from one YouTube video and then thinks they know how to anchor, would get what they deserve.
True, but many of us have learned a lot from the internet. Im a OCD, pain in the ass, and will research subject matters at length. But many people will get their information out of a couple of youtube videos. Like these two (the couple in the video) have done, clearly. I am more concerned at the attitude they have, they appear to their "audience" as "experts". They do a lousy accident analysis, and even when people in the comments point out that only the lack of a proper snubber is to blame, they claim that "in their experience arriving at the med, very few people use snubbers". These two, as Dave claimed before, are a trainwreck, and they are making videos without an ounce of humility towards the subject matter they know VERY little about.

It is not so much that people will take away anchoring techniques from this particular video, but clowns like these two who only got into sailing 4 months ago, feel they can authoritatively do accident analysis and didn't even consult with someone more knowledgeable before stating the amount of crap they did on their video. Ferries to blame? Oh my god ...
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Old 14-10-2019, 15:05   #24
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Re: Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

The OP message is to use a snubber. No matter the video, this is right.

Weíve noticed that the farther we get from the US, dock queens and charter central, the more we see operation Ďby the bookí. We rarely see anchored boats without a snubber. We always set one. We have bits stored to replace or rebuild our primary.

We all know the four crappy bolts that secure the windlass are toys as is the casting and the clutch. The thing is meant to lift a few hundred pounds of anchor and chain. Itís not capable of the repeated impact of a heavy vessel. So whatís the beef? The movie?
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Old 15-10-2019, 09:21   #25
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Re: Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

I will stick my beak in.

It is clear that the anchor system is what failed and I don't disagree that a snubber MAY have prevented this accident. However, is it clear what part failed? The video said the knots on the clutch failed (knots?) but in any case it seems that the windlass failed, and there apparently was no hook securing the chain to the boat and relieving the strain on the windlass. Then after all the chain spilled out, the "safety chain" (by which I think he means the rope securing the end of the chain to the boat) failed. So is it not true that a hook in front of the windlass would have likely prevented this accident? Or a stronger attachment to the end of the chain? And if the windlass was ready to fail due to a series of 3 foot wakes, is it clear that a snubber would have been enough to prevent it?

I have chartered mostly cats, and although there is always a bridle made of rope on the anchor chain, (which can sort of act as a quite short snubber), as well as a hook to secure the chain in front of the windlass, never have the charter briefings provided any advice, comments, or equipment to use as a snubber.

Yes obviously there is some line present that could be fashioned for use as a snubber, but my point is that it is common practice for charter companies to let us credit-card-captains take their valuable boats out with no expectation that they will use a snubber on the chain.

I am NOT saying it would not be a prudent practice, though.
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Old 15-10-2019, 10:29   #26
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Re: Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

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Originally Posted by cyan View Post
Years ago in ASA 103, anchoring day...
Me: What is the best place to attach the snubber?
Instructor: The what?

Every boat I've chartered ignored the idea of a snubber. Didn't have them, didn't say anything about them. Also all charter checkouts said everyone just uses one line on a mooring ball.


As these were the first big boats I ran I didn't know any better. Now the thought of no snubber or a single line to a mooring ball gives me night sweats...
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Old 15-10-2019, 11:04   #27
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Re: Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

Never, never leave the load on the windless clutch, that's just crazy, snubber or not. Do they do that in the Med too, trust their lives and their boat to the clutch?! Apparently he did NOT have enough scope for the three to four foot swell he should have been prepared for. Too bad...a lesson for all of us.
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Old 15-10-2019, 11:16   #28
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Re: Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

CF is for discussion no matter how poorly educated on sailing those posting are.
The video is just a video no more than a long ramble , your choice to watch or not , and react to the information in polite and constructive way, terms like clown and stupid etc only persuade me not to listen to that poster.
The internet is a great tool for information via youtube or other means , it is up to the observer to decipher the crap from the good , this is called research and cross referencing what you see or read. to think that CF is the only tool or those writing on it the only oracles of knowledge is wrong it is just another median of knowledge that needs to be screened. so a little less anger at the OP and the title.
Advertisement of ones own blogs are numerous on posters profile should this be banned to.
I use a snubber when conditions warrant it and many boats were I sail do the same it does not mean they are doing it wrong.
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Old 15-10-2019, 12:11   #29
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Re: Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

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I use a snubber when conditions warrant it and many boats were I sail do the same it does not mean they are doing it wrong.
I think several posters have poiinted out the more important issue: while a proper snubber is a really good idea most of the time, belaying the rode somehow at a minimum is mandatory ALL of the time. You are indeed doing it wrong of you EVER rely on the windlass gypsy to hold your boat at anchor without belaying the rode. EVERY windlass manual will state this, though I am in the crowd that usually skips the manual. (until someone on CF makes a dubious claim with capitalized words like "EVERY" or "NEVER"...hint: they're all online in PDF form these days)

I think there are several factors that bring out impolite words like "clown" and "stupid" on this forum- certainly not nice but they can be sort of a canary in the coal mine. If an everyday boating task such as belaying the anchor rode is critical to avoid disaster, and someone posts a learn-from-this-disaster video that fails entirely to identify this key mistake, then you can certainly expect the colorful terms here on CF. I find such language to be a good cue to pay attention, as those with more experience may have something really important to convey.
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Old 15-10-2019, 12:31   #30
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Re: Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

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I think several posters have poiinted out the more important issue: while a proper snubber is a really good idea most of the time, belaying the rode somehow at a minimum is mandatory ALL of the time. You are indeed doing it wrong of you EVER rely on the windlass gypsy to hold your boat at anchor without belaying the rode. EVERY windlass manual will state this, though I am in the crowd that usually skips the manual. (until someone on CF makes a dubious claim with capitalized words like "EVERY" or "NEVER"...hint: they're all online in PDF form these days)

I think there are several factors that bring out impolite words like "clown" and "stupid" on this forum- certainly not nice but they can be sort of a canary in the coal mine. If an everyday boating task such as belaying the anchor rode is critical to avoid disaster, and someone posts a learn-from-this-disaster video that fails entirely to identify this key mistake, then you can certainly expect the colorful terms here on CF. I find such language to be a good cue to pay attention, as those with more experience may have something really important to convey.
I am a great believer if the language needed is to make someone lesser in the eyes of their peers then those doing the insulting are in fact the clowns, if we need to use name calling in any post we have lost the moral high ground.
In regards to snubbers you are wrong as pointed out I said in certain circumstances as sailing is a never ending experience which is never truly shared by others then to point out it is wrong is in fact wrong .
the chain lying on the bottom of the sea bed and the angle of chain is more than acceptable to create the stress load needed , which will not affect the windlass. I am not going TO bore you with the detail of such circumstances one would expect one so experienced would have come across such situations.
In regards to manuals and telling us not TO do this and that ,one would expect not just in sailing but many applications in life and work were it gives us the tolerances and the fatal words of DO NOT, this is to protect the consumer and also to protect the manufacturer , but inevitable we ALL do it some were in our life.
Unfortunately with this outcome there were many errors that has caused this boat to sink not just not having a Snubber .
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