Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

[Hoodsail]

Grimaced as i watched the salvage "team" drag the boat across the bottom, the boat visibly moving up and down over the rocky bottom. the travel lift video confirmed the extensive hull & rudder damage done by their "rescue". Im just glad i dont have a windlass!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bullshooter

To clarify a point about the meaning of the word "snubber":

From an online article by Sail Magazine:

"At its most basic, a “snubber” is a short length of non-stretchy cordage attached to the anchor chain and to a strong point on a yacht, with the aim of taking the load off the windlass or to stop the chain rattling on the bow roller. A windlass is not designed to take snatch loads, nor, typically, is the deck to which it is attached.

More commonly, the term describes a long piece of cordage that cushions the boat from snatch loading. Typically, nylon rope is used for a snubber...."

See link below. I guess I thought the term was for the second, more commonly used definition above. I believe all charter briefings I have been through have stressed the need for a hook "attached to the anchor chain and to a strong point on a yacht" in front of the windlass, but I don't believe they called it a snubber.

https://www.sailmagazine.com/cruisin...r-snubber-tips

It's very important not to confuse these two very different functions.


Belaying the chain -- making it off strongly to a strong point on the boat, getting it off the windlass -- is one function.


Damping out snatch loads on the chain is an entirely different function.


You should never leave the chain on the windlass, even in calm weather. If you don't want to end up like the boat in the OP.



Whether or not you need any damping is a different question.



I never anchor without belying my chain (using a stainless chain strop and hook, in my case, or on my last boat, a Lewmar chain lock). But I rarely use a snubber -- long piece of nylon for damping snatch loads.



Don't use stretchy material for the first function.

[Galroc]

I watched this video and it demonstrated a snubber should be used and if used in this particular situation, could have avoided a lost boat. There were many other boats in that harbor that did not end up on the rocks that day.

This video was helpful to me despite the excuse of snubbers not being used in Med.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Bullshooter

From an online article by Sail Magazine:

"At its most basic, a “snubber” is a short length of non-stretchy cordage attached to the anchor chain and to a strong point on a yacht, with the aim of taking the load off the windlass or to stop the chain rattling on the bow roller.

Let's all write Peter Nielsen at Sail and object. What is described is not a snubber. It's a chain stopper. A chain stopper is often a specific latch or lock but can easily be a short length of line or chain that unloads the windlass. A snubber is specifically something stretchy to absorb snatch loading.

[Tillsbury]

All of those are good techniques. Don't go buy a boat and set sail first.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Let's all write Peter Nielsen at Sail and object. What is described is not a snubber. It's a chain stopper. A chain stopper is often a specific latch or lock but can easily be a short length of line or chain that unloads the windlass. A snubber is specifically something stretchy to absorb snatch loading.

Indeed, and the two completely different functions should not be confused.


In fairness, however, to "snub" means to check or stop, and so the original and exact meaning of "snubber" probably applies more to chain stoppers than it does to what we today call "snubbers". So I think the confusion may have honorable roots.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by wingssail

In the first place, my Lewmar manual does not state that. In the second place that quote is from "Classification societies.." NOT Lewmar.

But...use your snubber. I am sure you are safer.

From the Lewmar manual for a V700, and all other models I would presume since similar language appears in my Maxwell 4000 manual:

"Windlasses must not be used as the sole means of securing the anchor to the bow fitting especially under storm conditions. Anchors should be independently secured to prevent accidental release.
• Classification Societies require that a vessel lying at anchor must have its anchor rope/chain secured to a chain stopper or other suitable independent strong point.
• A windlass should never be used as a mooring bollard, the anchor rode MUST be secured to a mooring cleat, chain stopper or other designated strong point. Using the windlass to secure the rode will damage the windlass"

page 3: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/12...?page=3#manual

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Let's all write Peter Nielsen at Sail and object. What is described is not a snubber. It's a chain stopper. A chain stopper is often a specific latch or lock but can easily be a short length of line or chain that unloads the windlass. A snubber is specifically something stretchy to absorb snatch loading.

Yep. I calculate my boat - 55' power - as being subjected to only around 5,500 pounds of pressure from a wind of 120 knots, or about half the SWL of the 1/2" chain. But that is wind pressure alone and in the grand scheme of forces acting on the boat at anchorage is pretty much a non event even at hellacious wind speeds. It is the surge of water against the hull in high winds, or passing ferries, that matter and only a decent snubber can absorb those snatch load forces by distributing and diminishing the force over the distance the snubber stretches. Ideally the snubber is matched to the expected conditions, being thicker and possibly longer as wind speeds increase.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Let's all write Peter Nielsen at Sail and object. What is described is not a snubber. It's a chain stopper. A chain stopper is often a specific latch or lock but can easily be a short length of line or chain that unloads the windlass. A snubber is specifically something stretchy to absorb snatch loading.

Thanks for saying so. When the article opened with saying a snubber includes a length of non-stretch chord I became very confused. Sure sounded like a stopper to me.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by cyan

Uhh, Yes. Lewmar.
Perhaps your manual is for a Lewmar windlass that is not built like any other windlass? Please share the model number, as I love rugged hardware! Meanwhile, here are quotes, page numbers, and a link to many PDF manuals from Lewmar that contradict your point in several places...(bold font added by me)

Here's a few quotes from just one of them...
page 5
"Classification Societies and Lewmar require that a vessel at anchor must have its chain/rode held by a chain stopper or equivalent strong point at all times!"

page 6
Classification Societies require that a vessel lying at anchor must have its anchor rope/chain secured to a suitable independent strong point."

page 25
"Vessels at anchor will snub on the rode and this can cause slippage or apply excessive loads to the windlass."

page 25
"To prevent damage the fallsafe pawl MUST NOT be left to take the entire force from the anchor rode while at anchor. The rode should be secured directly to a bollard, sampson post or cleat and a chain secured by a chain stopper."

https://www.windlass-anchor.com/Lewm...als-s/2241.htm

Look cyan, I'm not trying to be argumentative or get the last word, but I'd like you to give me some credibility here. My Lewmar Concept 1 Manual (which is shown below) has the exact words I said. It does not have the words you quoted, and does not say that the recommendation is from Lewmar but only from "classification societies", and it refers to holding in "storm conditions", which of course I comply with, not normal conditions. Nowhere in the Lewmar Concept 1 manual are there words like you printed. My manual is paper and came with my windlass but I have the link here to the online manual which covers Concept 1https://www.manualslib.com/manual/14...ain&selected=4). The words you printed in your comment are not in that manual. Here is what it actually says:

Warning! Classification societies require that the vessel lying at anchor should have its chain/rope held by a chain stopper, bollard or equivalent strong point as windlasses are not designed to withstand the loads generated under storm conditions

Warning! When at anchor the load on the rope/chain can probably not be
held on the gypsy, and it is most likely that an additional cleat, or preferably
a chain stopper, will be required for safe anchoring

These words hardly sound like mandatory to me.

The link you provided are for windlasses that do not include the Concept1.

The Concept I is not a miracle windlass which your sarcasm suggested. It is in fact the lightest, fastest, and cheapest windlass which I thought would serve my purpose. I have used it without problem for over 23 years.

Of course I read all the commenters on this thread who state that a snubber or other solid connection is mandatory but honestly I was not aware of that, have rarely used it that way, and my manual did not, and does not state that.

Anyhow, I use a snubber when I deem it necessary.

So give me a break.

[Bullshooter]

That is why I posted that excerpt. I believe that some of the posters to this thread were using the word snubber to mean chain stopper, while others (like me) were thinking it referred to a line that stretches like nylon to absorb shock.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by Bullshooter

That is why I posted that excerpt. I believe that some of the posters to this thread were using the word snubber to mean chain stopper, while others (like me) were thinking it referred to a line that stretches like nylon to absorb shock.

It doesn't sound like they had either one.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Look cyan, I'm not trying to be argumentative or get the last word, but I'd like you to give me some credibility here. My Lewmar Concept 1 Manual (which is shown below) has the exact words I said. It does not have the words you quoted, and does not say that the recommendation is from Lewmar but only from "classification societies", and it refers to holding in "storm conditions", which of course I comply with, not normal conditions. Nowhere in the Lewmar Concept 1 manual are there words like you printed. My manual is paper and came with my windlass but I have the link here to the online manual which covers Concept 1https://www.manualslib.com/manual/14...ain&selected=4). The words you printed in your comment are not in that manual. Here is what it actually says:

Warning! Classification societies require that the vessel lying at anchor should have its chain/rope held by a chain stopper, bollard or equivalent strong point as windlasses are not designed to withstand the loads generated under storm conditions

Warning! When at anchor the load on the rope/chain can probably not be
held on the gypsy, and it is most likely that an additional cleat, or preferably
a chain stopper, will be required for safe anchoring

These words hardly sound like mandatory to me.

The link you provided are for windlasses that do not include the Concept1.

The Concept I is not a miracle windlass which your sarcasm suggested. It is in fact the lightest, fastest, and cheapest windlass which I thought would serve my purpose. I have used it without problem for over 23 years.

Of course I read all the commenters on this thread who state that a snubber or other solid connection is mandatory but honestly I was not aware of that, have rarely used it that way, and my manual did not, and does not state that.

Anyhow, I use a snubber when I deem it necessary.

So give me a break.

Fair enough, although I was seriously hoping for an introduction to a better windlass. (sarcasm notwithstanding) I think we would both agree that your manual states the rode belay warning once in the context of storm conditions and once on its own, with no reference to storms. In my manual a warning clearly comes from Lewmar and in yours it references another source, but the message is the same.

I've used a V2 for a while now and I can't seem to find an anchorage without swells lately. We spent a lot on the anchor, making it seem a shame to bet the farm on just the gypsy or clutch, though I have done that on occasion. (so I'm gonna shame myself here)

[a64pilot]

I keep seeing that it’s a concern of lifting the anchor and rode from deeper water.
Surely not. My VWC 2500, of course has a rated lifting capacity of 2500 lbs. I have an oversized 88 lb anchor, and if let out a full barrel of chain, 550 ft. I still have less than 700 lbs to lift.
That’s 550 ft of chain, and an oversized anchor and I’m still less than 1/3 rated capacity of my windlass.
How little are the windlasses on the average boat?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I keep seeing that it’s a concern of lifting the anchor and rode from deeper water.
Surely not. My VWC 2500, of course has a rated lifting capacity of 2500 lbs. I have an oversized 88 lb anchor, and if let out a full barrel of chain, 550 ft. I still have less than 700 lbs to lift.
That’s 550 ft of chain, and an oversized anchor and I’m still less than 1/3 rated capacity of my windlass.
How little are the windlasses on the average boat?

Most cruising boats I see in the 40-45' range use 2000-3500lb windlasses and chain 5/16 to 3/8. Some of the newest boats use lighter windlasses.

On my own boat I have a Lewmar Concept 1 which is rated at 1000 lbs and it handles my 275' of 5/16 chain and either the 44lb or 66lb anchor with no issue. It also pulls my boat up to the anchor when retrieving (another habit I've recently learned is forbidden). It has done this for 23 years, including a circumnavigation. It uses an 85 amp circuit breaker, which has tripped exactly twice.