Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by Bullshooter

I will stick my beak in.

It is clear that the anchor system is what failed and I don't disagree that a snubber MAY have prevented this accident. However, is it clear what part failed? The video said the knots on the clutch failed (knots?) but in any case it seems that the windlass failed, and there apparently was no hook securing the chain to the boat and relieving the strain on the windlass. Then after all the chain spilled out, the "safety chain" (by which I think he means the rope securing the end of the chain to the boat) failed. So is it not true that a hook in front of the windlass would have likely prevented this accident? Or a stronger attachment to the end of the chain? And if the windlass was ready to fail due to a series of 3 foot wakes, is it clear that a snubber would have been enough to prevent it?

I have chartered mostly cats, and although there is always a bridle made of rope on the anchor chain, (which can sort of act as a quite short snubber), as well as a hook to secure the chain in front of the windlass, never have the charter briefings provided any advice, comments, or equipment to use as a snubber.

Yes obviously there is some line present that could be fashioned for use as a snubber, but my point is that it is common practice for charter companies to let us credit-card-captains take their valuable boats out with no expectation that they will use a snubber on the chain.

I am NOT saying it would not be a prudent practice, though.

I thought he said “notch”, referring to a chain stopper between the windlass and roller, but it was “notch on the clutch” which doesn’t make any sense. I can’t see any chain stopper on the bow. But as mentioned above, there’s anchor chain out during the salvage so his talk of the “safety line snapping” and all the chain paying out doesn’t make much sense.

It felt to me as if the bit about ‘No-one uses a snubber’’ was inserted to make it less obvious how ridiculously poor the anchoring technique was, especially given that they were leaving the boat unattended.

The video is also an interesting demonstration of how a boat that might appear to the part-initiated as well-built can fall apart. Long-ish keel (or at least not fin-keeled), half-skeg on the rudder: check. Except they fell off before anything else. And a dozen shiny stainless bolts on the chain plate fitting aren’t much use if they are all next to each other into soggy plywood. The hull and keel were utterly destroyed by grounding in almost flat calm seas.

I don’t know whether he was insured, but my policy in the uk wouldn’t have covered that event.

[Mike OReilly]

tarian, I too don’t appreciate personal insults, but I infer (since I have not watched the video) that some knowledgable contributors are reacting strongly to what appears to be a good example of the Dunning-Kruger effect at work.

No harm done if it only hurts the vloggers, but I infer that they are making statements which are incorrect and possibly dangerous. Yet they are doing so while claiming a high level of expertise. This could possibly lead others astray, which is why some people are reacting acerbically.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by tarian

In regards to snubbers you are wrong as pointed out I said in certain circumstances as sailing is a never ending experience which is never truly shared by others then to point out it is wrong is in fact wrong .
the chain lying on the bottom of the sea bed and the angle of chain is more than acceptable to create the stress load needed , which will not affect the windlass. I am not going TO bore you with the detail of such circumstances one would expect one so experienced would have come across such situations.

I am going to politely disagree with you for two reasons.
1. It is humans who are sailing and as a fellow human, I am aware of (some of) my own shortcomings. When we anchor for lunch on a sandy bottom in zero wind in a delightful tropical cove without a cloud (or ferry) in sight, and then do a bit of delightful post-lunch snorkelling, only to then declare that this cove shall be our delightful overnight stay... well by then I am often distracted by fish-marinating and rum-mixing. As such the odds of the anchor rode THEN getting properly fastened fall to less that 100%. That margin of error opens the window to disaster...needlesly.
2. It is engineers who design windlasses and as a fellow engineer I appreciate that the (often unexpected) forces acting upon a device designed only to haul up an anchor and chain can be many times the design load when only considering the anchor and chain, your calm example notwithstanding.

[Mike Banks]

I watched this in astonishment. Apart from the fact that the mandatory use of a snubber is covered in anchoring 101, the vessel was repairable and not so completely damaged at the point salvage contractors arrived. The only thing they did correctly was affix flotation bags. As for the final damage that rendered the hull a complete write-off, that was caused by towing it across the rocks instead of a broadside drag so that the keel would have slid and bounced sideways over instead of directly against those flat rocks.

[wingssail]

I guess I am forced to admit now that I must know nothing about anchoring, since I never heard about that mandatory requirement and I only use a snubber when I deem the conditions warrant it, and that has been rare in the last 34 years. I did have a broken clutch in Papua New Guinea, which made raising the anchor difficult, (but it didn't let any chain run out) and I made do with a McGiver fix until I got to a port where Lewmar could send me a new one.

The truth is I never took anchoring 101.

Possibly, and this is related the chain/catenary discussion in anther thread, it's because I rarely anchor in poorly protected places. However, if I do, or if I'm going to leave the boat, then I am prepared to set a snubber, and I do that. But mandatory? I never knew.

Honestly.

Hey, but here's another point. After reading about how all windlass manufacturers mention the requirement in the manual, I decided to look in mine:

"Classification societies require that a vessel lying at anchor should have its chain/rope held by a chain stopper, bollard, or equivalent strong point as windlasses are not designed to withstand the loads generated under storm conditions"

Well, maybe I'm all right after all.

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by Mike Banks

I watched this in astonishment. Apart from the fact that the mandatory use of a snubber is covered in anchoring 101, the vessel was repairable and not so completely damaged at the point salvage contractors arrived. The only thing they did correctly was affix flotation bags. As for the final damage that rendered the hull a complete write-off, that was caused by towing it across the rocks instead of a broadside drag so that the keel would have slid and bounced sideways over instead of directly against those flat rocks.

And that's exactly why I called the salvage contractors CLOWNS and I'll do it again. Also, it was lowish tide. Why not wait for more water??


Apologies to all REAL clowns everywhere.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Well, maybe I'm all right after all.

Interesting. Here are a few statements from random windlass manuals:

Lewmar:
"Classification Societies and Lewmar require that a vessel at anchor must have its chain/rode held by a chain stopper or equivalent strong point at all times!"

Maxwell:
"DO NOT use the windlass to secure the anchor into the bow roller. Use an appropriate tensioner or snubber."

Five Oceans:
"The anchor rode MUST be secured to a mooring cleat, chain stopper or other designated strong point. Using the windlass to secure the rode will damage the windlass."

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by cyan

Interesting. Here are a few statements from random windlass manuals:

Lewmar:
"Classification Societies and Lewmar require that a vessel at anchor must have its chain/rode held by a chain stopper or equivalent strong point at all times!"

In the first place, my Lewmar manual does not state that. In the second place that quote is from "Classification societies.." NOT Lewmar.

But...use your snubber. I am sure you are safer.

[tsenator]

Originally Posted by basssears

Every boat I've chartered ignored the idea of a snubber. Didn't have them, didn't say anything about them. Also all charter checkouts said everyone just uses one line on a mooring ball.


As these were the first big boats I ran I didn't know any better. Now the thought of no snubber or a single line to a mooring ball gives me night sweats...

I've chartered 4 Catamarans in BVI's spanning over 20 years and they all had snubbers/bridles .

[Mike OReilly]

Nothing is “mandatory” when it comes to cruising. But there is a set of best practices which can be learned and discerned from the collective experience of fellow cruisers.

I almost always rig dual snubbers (bridle) when I drop the hook. I also hook the chain with a chain-stopper, and then engage the mechanical lock on my windlass clutch. There have been rare occasions when I’ve not snubbed, but since I rarely anchor for short periods, it only seems prudent to tie in the lines.

That said, it’s certainly possible to be perfectly safe a lot of the time without snubbers. All-chain rode will have significant catenary/or its weight & friction on the ground will act as good energy dampeners. So I can see people getting complacent with this arrangement.

It will be fine — until it’s not .

[smj]

Maybe I’m stupid but when I set my anchor I set it to hopefully withstand a forceable wind. Of course I use a snubber when I set my anchor this way as I dont want to damage my windlass in the process. Why would I then remove the snubber? The snubber takes the stresses of the windlass both while setting the anchor properly and also while dealing with the winds which may affect you while being anchored.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by wingssail

In the first place, my Lewmar manual does not state that. In the second place that quote is from "Classification societies.." NOT Lewmar.

But...use your snubber. I am sure you are safer.

Uhh, Yes. Lewmar.
Perhaps your manual is for a Lewmar windlass that is not built like any other windlass? Please share the model number, as I love rugged hardware! Meanwhile, here are quotes, page numbers, and a link to many PDF manuals from Lewmar that contradict your point in several places...(bold font added by me)

Here's a few quotes from just one of them...
page 5
"Classification Societies and Lewmar require that a vessel at anchor must have its chain/rode held by a chain stopper or equivalent strong point at all times!"

page 6
Classification Societies require that a vessel lying at anchor must have its anchor rope/chain secured to a suitable independent strong point."

page 25
"Vessels at anchor will snub on the rode and this can cause slippage or apply excessive loads to the windlass."

page 25
"To prevent damage the fallsafe pawl MUST NOT be left to take the entire force from the anchor rode while at anchor. The rode should be secured directly to a bollard, sampson post or cleat and a chain secured by a chain stopper."

https://www.windlass-anchor.com/Lewm...als-s/2241.htm

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by tsenator

I've chartered 4 Catamarans in BVI's spanning over 20 years and they all had snubbers/bridles .

I've chartered dozens of boats in the UK and they all specified that someone must be on board at all times when anchored.

[Spot]

Yes, the whole thing is painful on many levels, sorry for the damage/loss of the vessel.

If one of the three would have stayed behind to mind the two boats...or the chain to have been fixed to boat other than being held by the failing windlass....

How does one get past the 'not knowing what you don't know' syndrome in this avocation without making every mistake firsthand? Read more books? Make more mistakes as crew in front of those who can teach one better? Hang out on the forums?

[Bullshooter]

To clarify a point about the meaning of the word "snubber":

From an online article by Sail Magazine:

"At its most basic, a “snubber” is a short length of non-stretchy cordage attached to the anchor chain and to a strong point on a yacht, with the aim of taking the load off the windlass or to stop the chain rattling on the bow roller. A windlass is not designed to take snatch loads, nor, typically, is the deck to which it is attached.

More commonly, the term describes a long piece of cordage that cushions the boat from snatch loading. Typically, nylon rope is used for a snubber...."

See link below. I guess I thought the term was for the second, more commonly used definition above. I believe all charter briefings I have been through have stressed the need for a hook "attached to the anchor chain and to a strong point on a yacht" in front of the windlass, but I don't believe they called it a snubber.

https://www.sailmagazine.com/cruisin...r-snubber-tips