Advantages to have a small boat

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by hoppy

I suspect that it is easier to maneuver a 50 foot fin keel boat than it is a 26 full keel boat. Most certainly when docking in reverse.

It is easier to dock in reverse on a small boat. In most cases you have to hold the sails out manually to sail backwards which is often much easier on a smaller boat!

Originally Posted by barnakiel

It is basically the money thing that makes one buy a small boat in the first place. One of many reasons why so many owners finance the buy.

When I was offered a saddler 32 for free, I turned it down because it was too big.

This was no issue of money, the boat was capable to cross an ocean (had just completed 500 miles in indian ocean against the wind) and had many sails.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Another boldly posed opinion with no supporting statements. Just exactly why is a small boat safer, what is it safer than, and under what conditions, and where? And how small is the safer boat?

The smaller the boat, the safer it becomes.

Common cases making smaller boats safer:

1. slipping and being crushed between boat and dock or other boats -- it happened several times, and though I could feel my backbone through the front as a human body fender I could stop the boat without any damage.
2. freeing boat when run aground in remote places -- I have been aground in many places in swell pounding the boat on reef and can pole or use anchors to pull off manually
3. fingers stuck in cam cleats, or rope burns -- no winches to hurt you
4. uncontrolled gybe -- even hitting the head doesn't hurt much
5. rigging failures - many times I can hear a snap or pop but I can just tie it back with a bit of dyneema
6. falling from mast -- I fell from the very top without serious injury
7. lightning strikes -- in brunei, the taller mast next to me got struck and lost all electronics
8. piracy/tax collectors -- in indonesia the coast guard couldn't extract bribes me even after searching my bags for money (I had none), and repeatedly asking for fuel for their motorbike (my only fuel is wood for cooking) My kayak was too small to carry them to my boat to "search for bribes"; the coast guard doesn't have boats in that country.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

The smaller the boat, the safer it becomes.

Common cases making smaller boats safer:

1. slipping and being crushed between boat and dock or other boats -- it happened several times, and though I could feel my backbone through the front as a human body fender I could stop the boat without any damage.
2. freeing boat when run aground in remote places -- I have been aground in many places in swell pounding the boat on reef and can pole or use anchors to pull off manually
3. fingers stuck in cam cleats, or rope burns -- no winches to hurt you
4. uncontrolled gybe -- even hitting the head doesn't hurt much
5. rigging failures - many times I can hear a snap or pop but I can just tie it back with a bit of dyneema
6. falling from mast -- I fell from the very top without serious injury
7. lightning strikes -- in brunei, the taller mast next to me got struck and lost all electronics
8. piracy/tax collectors -- in indonesia the coast guard couldn't extract bribes me even after searching my bags for money (I had none), and repeatedly asking for fuel for their motorbike (my only fuel is wood for cooking) My kayak was too small to carry them to my boat to "search for bribes"; the coast guard doesn't have boats in that country.

what an interesting list! Here are my thoughts on it:

1. Larger boats are steadier in motion, have higher life lines, and generally don't rely upon human strength when docking, so less chance of falling and being crushed by the boat.

2. Agree somewhat, but larger boats often have enough HP to self-extract from such events.

3. Not having winches means that there are far higher chances of rope burns IME, and larger boats seldom make much use of cam cleats on loaded lines. Can't agree with this item at all.

4 Baloney! I was hit in the head on my Catalina 22 many years ago, and it hurt like hell. May explain my peculiar behavior?? Anyhow, the stabler ride of larger boats can reduce the chances of uncontrolled gybes... but if you are hit, it sure can be serious.

5 Can't understand why rigging failures are more lkely on a larger boat, nor why one can''t make Dyneema backups for them. I'm using Dyneema all over my boat these days.

6. Falling from mast can be fatal from small boats as well. You were bloody lucky and you know it!

7 Lightning strikes... your example is countered by a neighboring Spray replica, in a marina between two considerably taller rigs, being struck and suffering 20,000 AUD damages w hilst the adjoining boats had none. ( Manly Qld, MBTBC marina in ~ 2005).


8. Don't really understand this one, as it reflects your financial status more than boat size. You can be broke on just about any boat, regardless of size.

So, sad to say, y ou have utterly failed to convince me that small boats are categorically safer than larger ones.

Jim

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

what an interesting list! Here are my thoughts on it:

1. Larger boats are steadier in motion, have higher life lines, and generally don't rely upon human strength when docking, so less chance of falling and being crushed by the boat.

Less chance maybe, but you can get crushed. Small enough boat and you won't get hurt.

2. Agree somewhat, but larger boats often have enough HP to self-extract from such events.

Whatever "enough HP" is, any boat can have it, it has nothing to do with the boat size. In my case 1 human power can self-extract. I have heard of larger boats that could not self-extract despite having an engine.

3. Not having winches means that there are far higher chances of rope burns IME, and larger boats seldom make much use of cam cleats on loaded lines. Can't agree with this item at all.

If a jib sheet is wrapped around my ankle it cannot cause me harm no matter what I do.

This should never happen anyway, so I agree, not valid.

4 Baloney! I was hit in the head on my Catalina 22 many years ago, and it hurt like hell. May explain my peculiar behavior?? Anyhow, the stabler ride of larger boats can reduce the chances of uncontrolled gybes... but if you are hit, it sure can be serious.

This you can probably prevent it in all cases, so isn't really valid after all, but as you say it's more serious if you get hit by a bigger boom.

5 Can't understand why rigging failures are more lkely on a larger boat, nor why one can''t make Dyneema backups for them. I'm using Dyneema all over my boat these days.

I am thinking about mast failure, it can fall on you. Or rigging wires can be very dangerous if they break from tension. The danger increases with size.

6. Falling from mast can be fatal from small boats as well. You were bloody lucky and you know it!

I'm very lucky yes. But a taller mast, with my luck wouldn't have been enough.

7 Lightning strikes... your example is countered by a neighboring Spray replica, in a marina between two considerably taller rigs, being struck and suffering 20,000 AUD damages w hilst the adjoining boats had none. ( Manly Qld, MBTBC marina in ~ 2005).

Maybe this one isn't valid, but then again if they suffered 20,000 aud damage the boat must have been big. I still believe lightning is more likely to strike higher masts, but maybe it's not true or there are other factors.

8. Don't really understand this one, as it reflects your financial status more than boat size. You can be broke on just about any boat, regardless of size.

I have heard of other stories of pirates having a drink with the guy on the small boat before pirating people on larger ones. Bigger boats are fatter targets.

So, sad to say, y ou have utterly failed to convince me that small boats are categorically safer than larger ones.

Jim

Why don't you explain why larger boats are safer?

[mako]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

Common cases making smaller boats safer: 1 - 8.

Wow talk about bad luck. Maybe you should pick a safer hobby

[Tacmed]

Originally Posted by hoppy

I just wonder if those stats includes boats that were shipped from the US east coast. Wakeboarding boats, fishing boats etc.....

There is no way in hell, the average sailing yacht, sailing on it's own bottom is 28ft or even 38ft for that matter

Not sure. Was an article based on customs entry. Have you been to Brisbane Australia port? We do have many islands here. From where i am moored, the French seem to like smaller and the Americans bigger. Germany seems to be a mix. Australians seem to be smaller monos and cats for the older sailers. I have even seen a few 20ft trimaran s mostly French. I would offer that more experience sailors are French and smaller yachts. What is a bigger surprise is, you can sail all the way from another country, yet without a boat licence you can't dock in some marinas. (Insurance for all marinas)

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Hmmm, PHRF is one way to judge boats' relative speed, but I THINK on certain points, off the wind a bit, with stronger breezes, the C&C 37 (and I had the wrong one with the shorter w.l. earlier) with its 8 or nine feet length less of waterline will be at a disadvantage compared to the Gulfstar, in spite of its SA/D poverty and heavier displacement. BUT I have never seen the two in a race together. I'd be happy to be proven wrong in my theories. BTW the PHRF of 126 ain't that bad for a cruising boat, is it?!

It sure isn't. A PHRF of 126 is definitely fast for a family cruising boat. Once that thing gets rolling as you mentioned on a reach or something off the wind it should "cruise" quite nicely

I just don't need that much boat. Don't need 40' either as with the C&C but it happened to appear on Craigslist for $19,000 so I thought about it, but it definitely has too much draft for my needs plus the slip fees over the Winter would be such a waste of money

[boatman61]

This is becoming like the Mono vs Multi haggle..
Each is going to defend their own choices.. my opinion through personal experience is..
I've felt safer on a 22ftr than I've felt on a 62ftr and the sea's I experienced on the 22ftr were bigger than those on the 62ftr.. however the comfort sucked.
Large size gives comfort, storage space and speed.. but my feeling is a smaller well designed boat like an H22 is safer as it offers less resistance to the elements.. like the old Chinese adage about the Oak and Bamboo in a storm.
But hey.. how many have been in the middle of the Biscay or N Atlantic in December in 70kt winds and 11metre sea's aboard their 50+ftrs.. or their 22+ftrs...
In the end it all boils down to how the dice roll and the mental strength of the crew.. that's the true measure of a boat when the SHTF..

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Another boldly posed opinion with no supporting statements. Just exactly why is a small boat safer, what is it safer than, and under what conditions, and where? And how small is the safer boat? Jim

Out of curiosity at a boat show I asked Pantaenius how much to insure a 31ft yacht for an Atlantic circuit. There response was they would charge us 6 month European price which is cheap and 6 months US price which is expensive. In addition they preferred to see husband and wife crews on smaller yachts rather than say 50+ feet sighting that they were more manageable. Finally there would be a minimum value of £50k. However, not to worry because by the time you have yacht plus items for the crossing and personal items you are probably looking at £50k

In practice I tend to agree with the statement that a small yacht is more manageable especially for a smaller or less experienced crew. I can lift our 10kg anchor with one hand, so if the winch fails its not the end of the world. I can jybe the main by holding the mainsheet then walking it across and when the wind catches it still hold it and slowly release it in a controlled manner. The autopilot is a self contained tiller unit, not an expensive underdeck type and so it goes on.

Were the argument falls down is the slower passage speed, logistics of carrying large quantities of food and water for say an ocean crossing and in storm when size really does matter. Avoid the storms, solve the logistics and a smaller yacht becomes oh so very manageable. More than once we have turned her end for end with ropes to extract ourselves from a busy marina. At 5 tonnes this is an easy gentle walk the boat around and always in control with just a couple of people or single handed.

As already mentioned costs are exponential. A new genoa and main in a silver quality fabric for us at 31 feet cost 1/10th of cost for a 54ft yacht.

Finally I think it does matter were you sail. In less crowed waters and anchoring out the stability of a larger yacht may be an advantage. For crowed European marinas small is definitely an advantage. We have spend many an afternoon sat on board in places like St Peters Port Guernsey. On arrival the Harbour masters staff just direct us the a suitable spot. However, the look of despair on their faces when 50+ ft of yacht appears is priceless.

Pete

[Ms J-37]

Originally Posted by nematon785

here is some advice from a fellow sailor who is new to the sport also.

cabins without headroom are miserable.

heavy long keel boats with bow sprits are challenging to manuever in marinas

there is some ratio people talk about around here that says costs double every additional 5 feet in length of boat, and this old adage is actually seems very close to reality.

boats that are very small with rounded or tall cabin trunks and poorly designed dodgers make going forward more like a tightrope walk even in mild conditions

"all lines led aft to the cockpit" can be borderline ridiculous when you are learning. the easiest boat ive ever sailed had halyards and reefing lines at the mast, and that reduced complexity and snarled rats nest in the cockpit. my preference is simplicity

roller furling makes things easier. i dont like it when it has problems, but my own boat will have it.

making progress against significant wind and current can be challenging for any boat, but small light sailboats with outboard motors may have almost no progress at all, a serious concern if sailing outside sheltered waters

this is the best sailing forum, nicest down to earth people, great advice.

Great answer, thanks!

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by nematon785

here is some advice from a fellow sailor who is new to the sport also.

cabins without headroom are miserable.

heavy long keel boats with bow sprits are challenging to manuever in marinas

there is some ratio people talk about around here that says costs double every additional 5 feet in length of boat, and this old adage is actually seems very close to reality.

boats that are very small with rounded or tall cabin trunks and poorly designed dodgers make going forward more like a tightrope walk even in mild conditions

"all lines led aft to the cockpit" can be borderline ridiculous when you are learning. the easiest boat ive ever sailed had halyards and reefing lines at the mast, and that reduced complexity and snarled rats nest in the cockpit. my preference is simplicity

roller furling makes things easier. i dont like it when it has problems, but my own boat will have it.

making progress against significant wind and current can be challenging for any boat, but small light sailboats with outboard motors may have almost no progress at all, a serious concern if sailing outside sheltered waters

this is the best sailing forum, nicest down to earth people, great advice.

Agree on all except this one:

making progress against significant wind and current can be challenging for any boat, but small light sailboats with outboard motors may have almost no progress at all, a serious concern if sailing outside sheltered waters

To make progress in significant wind and current, especially if outside sheltered waters, those of us with small sailboats and outboards sail.

We don't even consider motoring.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by thomm225

To make progress in significant wind and current, especially if outside sheltered waters, those of us with small sailboats and outboards sail.

We don't even consider motoring.

With a stern hung rudder (no holes below the waterline, thank you) the outboard has to be offset. On my small boats, if it were blowing hard, motor sailing was impossible. On one tack the outboard would be high and dry, and on the other just about submerged. So sail power was used primarily when the wind blew.

The outboard was for when there was no wind at all.

Coming in to a dock I preferred to simply "skull" with the tiller. I could make 2 knots like this, in a sheltered harbour or anchorage. So much nicer than a noisey, stinking engine of any kind (except maybe electric).

When my outboard failed, it didn't really make much difference. I removed it, took it to be repaired, and just kept sailing. All that practice of sailing on/off the dock and anchorages really paid off. My only fear was running out of wind...but around here, thats not often a problem.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Agree on all except this one:

making progress against significant wind and current can be challenging for any boat, but small light sailboats with outboard motors may have almost no progress at all, a serious concern if sailing outside sheltered waters

To make progress in significant wind and current, especially if outside sheltered waters, those of us with small sailboats and outboards sail.

We don't even consider motoring.

+1 on this.

Of course a small light boat is going to not make the same progress as a longer and heavier boat in significant weather... hull speed for starters, and the small boat will get tossed about more.

But it's doable. I've sailed safely and in control in our 19' boat in 25 kt open-water conditions. (it was a guys only outing, not the wife's preferred conditions)

We have a 5 hp outboard. In nice conditions we can hit hull speed at just over half throttle, which leaves some extra grunt available for the heavier conditions. If the prop will stay in the water... we can motor in it. Otherwise... we sail.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by boatman61

This is becoming like the Mono vs Multi haggle..
Each is going to defend their own choices.. my opinion through personal experience is..
I've felt safer on a 22ftr than I've felt on a 62ftr and the sea's I experienced on the 22ftr were bigger than those on the 62ftr.. however the comfort sucked.
Large size gives comfort, storage space and speed.. but my feeling is a smaller well designed boat like an H22 is safer as it offers less resistance to the elements.. like the old Chinese adage about the Oak and Bamboo in a storm.
But hey.. how many have been in the middle of the Biscay or N Atlantic in December in 70kt winds and 11metre sea's aboard their 50+ftrs.. or their 22+ftrs...
In the end it all boils down to how the dice roll and the mental strength of the crew.. that's the true measure of a boat when the SHTF..

I've been giving this a bit of thought Boatman... I agreed, because of my own experience, but it is totally subjective and without empirical support... My own boat, being narrow, is fairly tender so it quickly and easily releases and reduces the loads it may face, from wind or waves, abruptly... and I find this bamboo approach more... well, I guess I'd say "reassuring" but it is not what most would call comfortable or reassuring, that is for sure. (Hell, I don't find it comfortable either!) I got smacked by a gust a couple months ago that nearly knocked me down, it felt like I was sailing a dinghy, and many, I am sure, would look at that as evidence that the boat was unsafe and too tippy and under-ballasted. But I felt fine realizing that the narrow hull did not fight back and the sails dumped that shock load off quickly and easily, and my particular design is in little danger of any capsize issues... (and still my upwind performance is certainly decent for its vintage and CCA lines...)
I wonder if there is a way to measure the "safety" of a boat relative to the oak vs. the bamboo analogy that would give credence to feelings of small boat security and sea-worthiness...?

[barnakiel]

Frankly, I doubt someone telling us they felt safer in a 22' boat (than in a 62' one) is serious.

I think the person simply did not sail enough in each style or at least not enough in one of them!

Our own boat is 26' and I have sailed long distances in boats up to 72'.

Small boats are inherently unsafe, less stable, less comfortable, slower and harder on the crew. They get bashed more by the wind turned upside down sooner by the waves and are out there only because some lunatics and dreamers have pockets not deep enough.

And I am glad they are as otherwise I would not be sailing either. Except I have a mirror in my boat and I look myself deep into the eyes before every offshore passage.

Cheers,
b.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Small boats are inherently unsafe, less stable, less comfortable, slower and harder on the crew. They get bashed more by the wind turned upside down sooner by the waves and are out there only because some lunatics and dreamers have pockets not deep enough.


Cheers,
b.

Well, let's not mince our words, shall we... how do you really feel?