What It Takes to Be in the 1% Around the World

[geoleo]

Not to mention Bloomberg himself who spent one hundred million dollars just to get Floridas' nomination.He failed.

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Evidently you either didn’t read [most likely], or didn’t believe, the cited article. [1]
If you didn't believe; which [so called] “facts” would you dispute?

[1] ➥ https://www.businessinsider.com/bill...andemic-2020-7

" Business Insider" is a leftist media gang. Has little to report on actual Business doings.

[geoleo]

The Democrats BBB law now approved by the House and pending in the Senate Senate decreases the tax on millionaire and billionaires via the SALT tax credit by $72000 a year. It raises the limits of this give away from $10000 that Trump installed to $82000!!! Why are the socialist ultra liberals doing this????????

[wyb2]

Originally Posted by Joli

Have you ever signed the front of a paycheck? Have you ever put your paycheck in a drawer uncashed because after paying employees there was nothing left for you? Have you ever risked your home or savings to start a business?

Just asking.

Nope. Does that invalidate my points?

Seriously though, I don’t think I said anything positive or negative about starting a business. The only thing I said was eliminating all of the complexities of our tax code would take away business asset depreciation. I didn’t propose the idea (though I do agree the tax code is overly complex), I was just pointing out that it would cost wealthy people and businesses much more than it would cost the poor, contrary to what the the person I quoted was suggesting.

Also, just a note, to risk your home and savings, you have to first have a home and savings. When we talk about people who make $18k/year, they generally don’t have those things. That was one of my points, things that can seem like burdens may actually look like good fortune when viewed from a different angle.

[Gadagirl]

Well apparently the rich are suffering also.

https://www.axios.com/pandemic-supply-chain-shortages-yachts-art-planes-super-rich-38503d2f-e3a8-48d4-82c4-727c2e62aa0f.html

yachts, watches, private jets — are in short supply, forcing the superrich to cough up even more cash for exclusive activities — if they can get in on them at all.

[Gadagirl]

And more to do with boats, well yachts.....

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-10-22/how-covid-supply-chain-issues-impact-yachts-for-sale

‘Bring me a boat tomorrow’: Inside the pandemic yacht boom

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by GordMay

x
x
x







The truth about the American tax system is that it is slightly progressive.

The richest one percent earn about 21 percent of the income, and pay about 24 percent of the taxes.

The problem I have with this graph is that I don't believe it.

We read every day about "How the rich avoid paying taxes". There are many ways in which that is true and not shown by this graph.

And we see many stories about offshore tax dodges to shield wealth.

And I know, on a small scale for example, that gains in wealth from growth in the value of an investment portfolio is not counted as income and untaxed until sold. So someone who has $100 million of investments which could be growing at 10% per year, should see income of $10 million dollars. But they don't and it is not taxed. Even when they pass it to their heirs most if that, which is then income to the heir, is not taxed. Other ways such as getting loans backed by the investment (at it's current, increased, value) can be spent but the loan proceeds, which are used as spendable income, are also not taxed. In fact I am pretty sure that many people in that 1% group are gaining wealth which is not taxed and that 24% they are paying is only on a small portion of thier actual wealth or earnings.

If they actually paid 24% of all that they earned or gained, I think it would be a lot more fair and we would not have such a perception that they don't pay their fair share.

[AKA-None]

Yes
Never
Yes well maybe

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by wyb2

Good stats, now do it as a proportion of net worth.

And some basic math applied to the figures cited there:

Top 1% paid an average of $426,000 on an average income of $1,677,000. The bottom 50% paid an average of $626 on an average income of $18,500.

Tell me again why it’s unfair that you only get to take home $1.2 million, and we need to take more from people that earn $18k a year?

First, net worth is not calculated as part of an individual tax burden.

Secondly, your stated average income of the 1% is a ruse. The majority of people in the 1% make less than $1mil/year.

Third, nobody said we need to take more from people making 18K/year. You are presenting a straw man argument.

The fact you see these things as burdens is pure comedy. These are problems that the vast majority of people wish they had the good fortune of having.

Also, the idea that it’s the wealthy that suffer from an overly complex tax code is again absurd to the point of comedy. If you need to hire a tax attorney to figure it out, how exactly do you think that people who can’t afford a tax attorney navigate it? The answer is poorly, and many pay more than they legally have to every year as a result.

It is not a "fact" I "see these things as burdens." I merely made statements regarding issues that many people do not consider or understand. Please don't assume a connotation, or take my statements out of context. I tend to choose my words very carefully.

Most people fill out a 1040-EZ, and aren’t getting any credits that aren’t automatic. Many people in the bottom 50% that you are so mad at don’t file at all because they don’t make enough money to have taxable income.

Well, this statement reveals your depth of knowledge of the subject; or more correctly lack thereof. The 1040-EZ form was discontinued in 2018. Welcome to 2021!

Also, according to the same IRS statistical data cited in my initial post, the majority of Americans file the 1040 form and amendments.

Agree, we should end all tax credits and stick to a simple progressive marginal rate income tax for individuals and businesses.

Something tells me you would be somewhat pissed when you realize that under that system the bottom 50% pays roughly the same as they do now, and a boatload of credits and strategies that your tax account uses every year suddenly don’t exist and you owe $100k more than you are used to. And that 100+ employee business you run can’t use asset depreciation on things it bought years ago to drive down this years reportable profits.

You clearly don't grasp the difference between tax credits and tax deductions.

We don't agree on a progressive marginal rate. I stated I am a proponent of a VAT or flat tax based on income for individuals, regardless of what that income is. I also stated that corporations should have a different tax structure.

I won't assume that you are ignorant of facts regarding this topic. I'll let your own statements speak for themself.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by wingssail

The problem I have with this graph is that I don't believe it.

We read every day about "How the rich avoid paying taxes". There are many ways in which that is true and not shown by this graph.

And we see many stories about offshore tax dodges to shield wealth.

And I know, on a small scale for example, that gains in wealth from growth in the value of an investment portfolio is not counted as income and untaxed until sold. So someone who has $100 million of investments which could be growing at 10% per year, should see income of $10 million dollars. But they don't and it is not taxed. Even when they pass it to their heirs most if that, which is then income to the heir, is not taxed. Other ways such as getting loans backed by the investment (at it's current, increased, value) can be spent but the loan proceeds, which are used as spendable income, are also not taxed. In fact I am pretty sure that many people in that 1% group are gaining wealth which is not taxed and that 24% they are paying is only on a small portion of thier actual wealth or earnings.

If they actually paid 24% of all that they earned or gained, I think it would be a lot more fair and we would not have such a perception that they don't pay their fair share.

You want to tax unrealized gains?

Should we send a tax bill to a homeowner when their home value increase?

Should we send a tax bill to the schoolteacher when their 401k increases?

How is this any of your business?

You've had the good fortune to go sailing for the past 20 years. You decided to forego additional work income and investment growth to live a richer personal life. That's your decision and good for you but to now complain that someone who worked hard, smart and possibly got lucky should pay tax on an unrealized gain is nothing more then jealousy.

It's sad that we've reached the point where wealth and accomplishment are are so denigrated. Complaining about the rich is nothing more then identity politics.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by wyb2

Also, just a note, to risk your home and savings, you have to first have a home and savings. When we talk about people who make $18k/year, they generally don’t have those things. That was one of my points, things that can seem like burdens may actually look like good fortune when viewed from a different angle.

I started my working career in a paper mill working a seven day swing making much less then the number you quote. I made investments, other coworkers bought new cars.
This is a free country, we all get to make our own decisions. If your decisions don't lead to financial independence that's ok, you still had the chance to make your own decision and live your own life.

[Tetepare]

Since when is inheritance not taxed?

As far as taxing investment gains annually, the whole point was to get people to save for retirement so people don’t become a tax burden. And since it compounds, ultimately the government gets more.

There is a limit to delayed tax retirements such as 401k. And ultimately nobody is going to be a 1% off 401k. Other investments are made with money that’s already been taxed. That fictitious $100mil was $150mil that the government already gobbled up and squandered.

There is no tax free, unless one knows how to keep income low enough not to pay it.

[wyb2]

Ok, I’ll start with, my tone was a bit much. I saw a bunch of bullet points that I felt were a combination of wrong or misleading, and I got a little carried away.

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

First, net worth is not calculated as part of an individual tax burden.

I know. But the point is when we talk about fairness, and fair share, income is one metric, but net worth is probably a much better reference point.

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

Secondly, your stated average income of the 1% is a ruse. The majority of people in the 1% make less than $1mil/year. .

That was the average income of the top 1% of filers per the site you referenced. Yes, based on typical income distributions the median is likely lower. That’s probably true for each bracket.

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

Third, nobody said we need to take more from people making 18K/year. You are presenting a straw man argument.

You literally typed “ Or maybe the top 10% should start demanding the bottom 50% of all taxpayers pay their fair share”

18k/year was the average income for the bottom 50% of filers.

Yes I connected 2 dots, it’s not really a straw man. I do believe and appreciate that you don’t actually think people at that income level should pay more in taxes (although this could potentially conflict with your stated support for a flat tax/VAT).

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

It is not a "fact" I "see these things as burdens." I merely made statements regarding issues that many people do not consider or understand. Please don't assume a connotation, or take my statements out of context. I tend to choose my words very carefully.

Fair enough. I read it with a ‘people don’t even know how hard it is!’ tone.

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

Well, this statement reveals your depth of knowledge of the subject; or more correctly lack thereof. The 1040-EZ form was discontinued in 2018. Welcome to 2021!

Also, according to the same IRS statistical data cited in my initial post, the majority of Americans file the 1040 form and amendments.

Correct, I didn’t know the EZ was discontinued, I’ve never filed it. I actually made another mistake in talking about people that don’t even file, this data was only of filers. People who don’t make enough to even file would not be included.

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

You clearly don't grasp the difference between tax credits and tax deductions.

I do, I just think that if we are going to be consistent and eliminate things labeled credits for lower income filers, then we would have to eliminate other targeted tax reduction strategies regardless of how they are labeled. Admittedly I didn’t explain this jump.

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

We don't agree on a progressive marginal rate. I stated I am a proponent of a VAT or flat tax based on income for individuals, regardless of what that income is. I also stated that corporations should have a different tax structure.

Yeah, I know, I was being snarky and slipped that one in there.

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

I won't assume that you are ignorant of facts regarding this topic. I'll let your own statements speak for themself.

Thanks.

[wyb2]

Originally Posted by Joli

I started my working career in a paper mill working a seven day swing making much less then the number you quote. I made investments, other coworkers bought new cars.
This is a free country, we all get to make our own decisions. If your decisions don't lead to financial independence that's ok, you still had the chance to make your own decision and live your own life.

And when was that? Plug that number and that year into an inflation calculator, and let us know what it spits out.

Also, a note for readers, you will always run into these anecdotes. ‘No one helped me!’ ‘I worked 3 jobs!’ ‘Uphill, both ways!’ Even when they are true, it doesn’t really matter - the economy is supposed to work for a large number of people, not just a select few of work-ethic-and-grit super heros.

Edited because I accidentally posted half a reply.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Joli

You want to tax unrealized gains? Yes, and other forms of wealth

Should we send a tax bill to a homeowner when their home value increase?
Yes

Should we send a tax bill to the schoolteacher when their 401k increases?
Yes

How is this any of your business?I am a citizen, voter, and tax payer, and have been for 55 years.

You've had the good fortune to go sailing for the past 20 years. You decided to forego additional work income and investment growth to live a richer personal life. That's your decision and good for you but to now complain that someone who worked hard, smart and possibly got lucky should pay tax on an unrealized gain is nothing more then jealousy.

You should not get personal. I am as entitled to my opinion as you are yours. Though I quit my professional job in the US 20 some years ago, I did not stop working, earning, and paying US taxes as well as taxes in other countries.

It's sad that we've reached the point where wealth and accomplishment are are so denigrated. Complaining about the rich is nothing more then identity politics.

I am not complaining about the rich. I am just respondng to what I have read about the US tax system, what others seem to pay, and how I feel about the fairness or unfairness of the system. Maybe I am wrong. Mostly I don't know the whole story and all the details, but I know when I feel an unfairness and right now I feel an unfairness about how the tax system is a burden to the poor and much less burden on the rich and that we should change that.

I believe that our tax system should be based on some overall, defnesible, system of fairness, not simply, tax every thing we can tax, as much as can be born, which seems to be the case now.