Shooting at Orlando Nightclub Kills 50

[omc]

We are deeply shocked and saddened by the loss of life and injuries after the shooting attack at Orlando nightclub.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/13/us...=top-news&_r=0

[Factor]

Its tragic.

And its even more tragic that the gun laws in the USA will never change and this will happen again and again.

[Ribbit]

Originally Posted by Factor

Its tragic.

And its even more tragic that the gun laws in the USA will never change and this will happen again and again.

Citizens on the scene are the real first responders, which is why the Head of Interpol recommended after the Westgate Mall massacre, that arming the citizenry was the only option other than creating massive hardened defensive systems to protect the vulnerable, which the terrorists would get around anyway, and you then have the problem of tackling them when they are behind hardened defensive systems.

He is not wrong, and his viewpoint expresses historical reality, where events against unarmed innocents spirals out of control, and the resulting panic (after massive casualties) sees personal armaments become compulsory (which does work).

This is why historical figures such as the criminologist Cesare Beccaria published studies like they did, which has been confirmed by many other criminologists to this day, including Prof. John Lott who started out anti-gun, but changed his outlook due to overwhelming evidence.

Bottom line, creating even more unarmed victims does far, far worse, than 'not working'.

You may not like that, I may not like that, but that is the reality.

My deepest sympathies to the victims and their families.

PS I say that as somebody who was shot by a nutter in 1989 (believe me, it makes you wake up and pay attention). I would not wish anybody else unarmed, to experience the utter helplessness and frustration, of being in that situation and being unable to shoot back. Sadly, this happens all too frequently to too many people.

[omc]

Originally Posted by Factor

Its tragic.

And its even more tragic that the gun laws in the USA will never change and this will happen again and again.

I do hope and pray this would never happen again.

I apologize to the moderators of CF in advance if my following post would perhaps breaching the rules of this forum which would not be at all my intention, then free of political polemic I think it's important to note :

There have been a number of States in the US that have begun issuing concealed carry permits for gun in past 5 years, and in every case, the murder and violent crime rate went down significantly. If you removed several of the US largest cities (which all have very severe gun control laws) from the gun murder statistics, the US is at the very bottom of the murder rate in the World, 42nd or 45th if I recall. And they have more guns per capita than any other Country in the World. On top of that, nearly every "mass shooting" has occurred in a "gun free zone".

"When guns are outlawed, outlaws will have guns".

[The Garbone]

Originally Posted by Factor

Its tragic.

And its even more tragic that the gun laws in the USA will never change and this will happen again and again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_S...hostage_crisis

Horrible thing.

[Waterrat10]

Here comes the gun nuts. Reading the evidence as they see it. What a horrible tragedy occurred in Orlando this morning. Hate and violence will only prevail if followed by more hate and violence.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by omc

I do hope and pray this would never happen again.

I apologize to the moderators of CF in advance if my following post would perhaps breaching the rules of this forum which would not be at all my intention, then free of political polemic I think it's important to note :

There have been a number of States in the US that have begun issuing concealed carry permits for gun in past 5 years, and in every case, the murder and violent crime rate went down significantly. If you removed several of the US largest cities (which all have very severe gun control laws) from the gun murder statistics, the US is at the very bottom of the murder rate in the World, 42nd or 45th if I recall. And they have more guns per capita than any other Country in the World. On top of that, nearly every "mass shooting" has occurred in a "gun free zone".

"When guns are outlawed, outlaws will have guns".

Your numbers are way off. When the US is compared to other first world countries they are at the top of the heap, with more murders per capita than any other first world country.
It's a terrible tragedy that just happened in Orlando, my most sincere condolences to all the victims and their families.

[chris mac]

This was truly a tragic event, and it shows that "hate" is synonymous with evil. To believe that others must die just because they are different than you, is beyond sick.
Regardless of everyone's opinion on whether you have the right to own guns, I think these kids had the right to full lives!!!!
Because a nut job with known ties to terrorists still had the right to buy guns, he stole those kids rights to LIVE!
And before anyone calls me anti-gun, I own several rifles, a shotgun, compound bow. I hunt and target shoot often. So I don't have a problem with guns. Just allowing nut cases easy access to them.

[weavis]

Please be aware that this is not a thread for discussing gun rights.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by chris mac

This was truly a tragic event, and it shows that "hate" is synonymous with evil. To believe that others must die just because they are different than you, is beyond sick.
Regardless of everyone's opinion on whether you have the right to own guns, I think these kids had the right to full lives!!!!
Because a nut job with known ties to terrorists still had the right to buy guns, he stole those kids rights to LIVE!
And before anyone calls me anti-gun, I own several rifles, a shotgun, compound bow. I hunt and target shoot often. So I don't have a problem with guns. Just allowing nut cases easy access to them.

Thanks, one of the best succinct paragraphs about this I have ever read.

[Ribbit]

Originally Posted by weavis

Please be aware that this is not a thread for discussing gun rights.

But is it a thread for discussing irrational anti-gun prejudices, which have been debunked countless times over literally centuries, with solid evidence and common sense?

It does seem as those spouting irrational and fact free opinions, continue to get a free pass here?

Believe me, after being shot by a nutter, I have dug deeply into this issue, and came to the same outlook held by so many researchers (who frequently set out to acquire evidence to further gun control).

Bluntly, I am against the creation of unnecessary victims, and unless this issue is actually discussed, soberly, and rationally, unintended consequences will come to bear, and we will be in a World of hurt before we know it, if history is any indicator (and it is).
The Head of Interpol, after the Westgate Mall massacre:
“Ask yourself: If that was Denver, Col., if that was Texas, would those guys have been able to spend hours, days, shooting people randomly?” Noble said, referring to states with pro-gun traditions. “What I’m saying is it makes police around the world question their views on gun control. It makes citizens question their views on gun control. You have to ask yourself, ‘Is an armed citizenry more necessary now than it was in the past with an evolving threat of terrorism?’ This is something that has to be discussed.”
“For me it’s a profound question,” he continued. “People are quick to say ‘gun control, people shouldn’t be armed,’ etc., etc. I think they have to ask themselves: ‘Where would you have wanted to be? In a city where there was gun control and no citizens armed if you’re in a Westgate mall, or in a place like Denver or Texas?'”
As we reported last month, an off-duty SAS soldier armed with a handgun helped save at least 100 lives during the Westgate siege, returning to the building a dozen times to rescue hostages.
Noble’s argument that guns in the hands of responsible citizens can prevent bloodshed is backed by hard statistics.
According to a 1993 National Self- Defense Survey conducted by Gary Kleck, Ph.D., a professor in the School of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Florida State University in Tallahassee, Americans use guns to defend themselves against a confrontation with a criminal up to 2.5 million times a year. This means that every day in America some 6,800 people use guns to protect themselves.
Scholars Clayton E. Cramer and David Burnett have documented how “a great number of tragedies — murders, rapes, assaults, robberies — have been thwarted by self-defense gun uses.”
{originally ABC News}

This needs to sink in, imho.

[goat]

And almost another one...
Man arrested in California armed with guns, explosives on way to LA Pride - National | Globalnews.ca

[four winds]

Have been listening to radio coverage all day.

Some statements presented:

- The killer (born in the US) has been working as a security guard for nine years.

- The nightclub is in Orlando, the killer lived in Ft. Pierce.

- The FBI interviewed the killer twice in recent years after he was reported by co-workers for statements he made about his political beliefs and a connection to radical extremists. The investigation was closed after no connection could be discovered.

- His father said he was very upset after seeing a gay couple kissing in Miami a couple of months ago.

- The nightclub was a popular gay gathering spot.

- Minutes before the incident began a 2am the killer called 911 and made a statement pledging allegiance to ISIS.

- It ended at 5am when law enforcement breached a wall with a vehicle and 11 police officers engaged and killed the perpetrator.

- The glock pistol and ar15 rifle were purchased legally last week.

[belizesailor]

Tragic. Even more tragic that it continues to occur repeatedly in the USA. Something unique in American psychology that causes this to occur over and over in USA like no where else in the world. But we as a society seem incapable of doing anything about it.

Glad Im here in Guatemala. Plenty of shootings here, but none of them are random.

[Ribbit]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Tragic. Even more tragic that it continues to occur repeatedly in the USA. Something unique in American psychology that causes this to occur over and over in USA like no where else in the world. But we as a society seem incapable of doing anything about it.

Glad Im here in Guatemala. Plenty of shootings here, but none of them are random.

Nothing happened in Paris, Brussels, London, or so many other places then?

So many dead and wounded before uniformed second responders with guns arrived at the scene?

I can't believe that so many people can continue with their denial of reality.

Time and again research confirms what this man wrote in the 18th Century:

“False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that it has no remedy for evils, except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are of such a nature. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”
― Cesare Beccaria

A more recent criminologist:

"At first glance, it may seem odd or even perverse to suggest that statutory controls on the private ownership of firearms are irrelevant to the problem of armed crime; yet that is precisely what the evidence shows. Armed crime and violent crime generally are products of ethnic and social factors unrelated to the availability of a particular type of weapon.

The number of firearms required to satisfy the crime market is small, and these are supplied no matter what controls are instituted. Controls have had serious effects on legitimate users of firearms, but there is no case, either in the history of this country or in the experience of other countries in which controls can be shown to have restricted the flow of weapons to criminals, or in any way reduced crime.

While the number of legal firearms owners in Britain has been declining due to a hostile gun control bureaucracy, crimes involving firearms increased 196% between 1981-1992."

Chief Inspector Colin Greenwood of the West Yorkshire Constabulary (now Criminologist)