Monopoly marina ownership makes disabled veteran homeless

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

If the regs were so burdensome as to make marina operation unprofitable, big companies wouldn't be snapping them up.

This point is further reinforced by the fact that the vast majority of marinas in this country are still being successfully operated as small businesses.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

This point is further reinforced by the fact that the vast majority of marinas in this country are still being successfully operated as small businesses.

Actually, the point was and still is about large corporations assimilating them now faster than ever. Comprehension requires retention of what came before.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

marina management is buried in regulatory burden from RCRA, the CWA, liability complexities, water management requirements, USCG rules, multiple state and local jurisdictional requirements, maintenance of nav aids and a host of other burdens you likely never heard of. Cleaning boats in marinas is a whole world away from the reality of running, owning or managing one. The property taxes alone would choke you.

So you didn't actually list any specific regulations and their specific impacts here that are actually causing what you allege. I spent 20+ years in the Coast Guard so picking that out of your vague list, perhaps you could cite a specific "USCG rule" that makes it impractical for a small company to run a marina, with the specific requirements that cause this?

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

So you didn't actually list any specific regulations and their specific impacts here that are actually causing what you allege. I spent 20+ years in the Coast Guard so picking that out of your vague list, perhaps you could cite a specific "USCG rule" that makes it impractical for a small company to run a marina, with the specific requirements that cause this?

Oh, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a cogent answer. He has a real hard-on for me and was just in a rush to try to show the world that I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about. You know, because I'm just a lowly hull cleaner and all. And while I may not be an expert in marina management, I guarantee this guy isn't either. He just plays one on the internet.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

So you didn't actually list any specific regulations and their specific impacts here that are actually causing what you allege. I spent 20+ years in the Coast Guard so picking that out of your vague list, perhaps you could cite a specific "USCG rule" that makes it impractical for a small company to run a marina, with the specific requirements that cause this?

As an x-Coastie (as am I), I'm surprised you are unaware but since you asked -
There are numerous regs promulgated pursuant to MARPOL, MPPRCA, CWA, OPA, OAPCA, CVA, etc... which deal with a myriad of marina management issues including but not limited to oil and fuel handling, storage and control, sewage handling and pumpout facilities, stormwater runoff, solid waste and debris handling and disposal, nav aides responsibilities, etc... under the purview of the CG.

If you cant find them, I could waste my time digging up specific CFR citations but you could easily do that if you really wanted them.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

to show the world that I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about.

You don't need my help demonstrating that.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

As an x-Coastie (as am I), I'm surprised you are unaware but since you asked -
There are numerous regs promulgated pursuant to MARPOL, MPPRCA, CWA, OPA, OAPCA, CVA, etc... which deal with a myriad of marina management issues including but not limited to oil and fuel handling, storage and control, sewage handling and pumpout facilities, stormwater runoff, solid waste and debris handling and disposal, nav aides responsibilities, etc... under the purview of the CG.

If you cant find them, I could waste my time digging up specific CFR citations but you could easily do that if you really wanted them.

So first off MARPOL dates back to 1983. If that's what killed off the family owned marina is took nearly 40 years to do so! OPA is from 1990, MPPRCA is from 1987.....
Secondly, you again just provide a random list. What exactly, to pick one from your list, is an example of an onerous storm water runoff regulation published by the CG (for that matter what is the CG regulation covering storm water runoff in a marina?) that would cause a family owned marina to be forced to sell? I don't need a CFR (except I am curious about that storm water thing), I'm as familiar with the regulations as you are, just some actual examples of actual requirements and their impact.

The fact that laws and regulations have existed, most for decades, and most pretty reasonable, i.e. don't dump oil or plastic or poop into the water, does not logically progress to your conclusion that just now these laws are making it unviable to run a marina without the support of a large corporation. You may well be right, but if you want to reasonably make that argument, at the very least you'd need to provide some concrete examples to support your thesis of not only regulations untenable for a single marina but ones that just became untenable recently.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

Precisely which onerous "regulations, restrictions and demands" are you referring to? Because I earn my living in marinas and I don't see them. I suspect that if the small, family-owned marina goes away, it is because the value of the land the marina is situated upon is too great to leave undeveloped for other purposes. The family therefore cashes out and who can blame them? I can think of examples on both coasts where this has happened within the last couple of years.

I'll bite.


1) Shoreline regulations. Generally, multiagency permits are required for any sort of shoreline or lakebed/oceanbed/riverbed alteration. This includes routine dredging, addition of or changes to ramps, docks, slips, and other shoreside facilities. While the letter of the law has not changed in these areas, implementation has since issuance of permits is discretionary. Of particular concern for marinas is a) the strategy of controlling boat congestion in an area by limiting the number of slips, ramps, and parking spaces available, b) stated (and relatively recent) policy of some agencies to treat public waters as day use facilities rather than overnight use facilities, and c) prioritization of local residential shoreline landowner interests over marinas


2) Invasive species regulations Particularly for freshwater facilities, there are mandates and regulations that have the stated goal of reducing the spread of various aquatic invasive species. Many marinas must now be licensed as "shoreline service providers" and send employees to annual training classes on the new regulations. In some cases new equipment is required. Locally for me, these laws are relatively new.



3) Increased setbacks and new restrictions on construction in a floodplain. By their nature, most marinas have some facilities located in a floodplain and close to the shore. Historically, it was a common and accepted practice to construct low-value improvements, such as restroom/shower buildings, deck/picnic areas, and parking, in these areas. It is increasingly difficult to obtain these sorts of permits making it impossible for some marinas to update their facilities or expand.


4) Loss of cost-effective wastewater disposal alternatives A regulatory area also affecting RV campgrounds, commercial-scale on-site wastewater treatment systems have become increasingly expensive and require increasing amounts of dedicated real estate. Marinas that are located outside of an area served by city water and sewer are affected. While these regulations are not new, there are ongoing technical changes involving system sizing and groundwater separation that add substantial costs. As in other areas, waivers, grandfathering, etc., are increasingly difficult to obtain.


5) New mandates regarding shore power While not necessarily a bad thing for boaters, the requirement for GFCI protection of shore power pedestals is adding new burdens. In particular it means that lower-end marinas can no longer purchase used shore power pedestals from other marinas that are upgrading, and there are higher maintenance costs since GFCIs tend to fail often in dockside service.


6) Problems obtaining insurance Friends in the business tell me that insurance underwriting requirements have become more strict. In particular there are increasing requirements to physically separate patron foot traffic from areas where equipment is used e.g. travellifts, forklifts for dry stack, launch ramps, mast cranes. The layout of many marinas doesn't permit such isolation without significant new construction to change traffic patterns. Requirements for separation of fuel storage and dispensing equipment (gasoline/diesel/propane) from other uses is another problem area where there are few good alternatives at some sites.


7) Increasing costs and loss of vendors for waste fluid disposal Generally, it has become more difficult and expensive to dispose of waste gasoline, diesel, drain oil, coolant, paint, etc. Marinas that also provide repair services are affected.


What I'm seeing is that new marinas and marinas that are growing are ones that have considerable local governmental sponsorship because they bring commerce to an area that needs jobs. Some are municipally owned. Some are supported by casinos.



On the other hand it is the smaller, individually owned facilities that are most affected.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I'll bite.


1) Shoreline regulations. Generally, multiagency permits are required for any sort of shoreline or lakebed/oceanbed/riverbed alteration. This includes routine dredging, addition of or changes to ramps, docks, slips, and other shoreside facilities. While the letter of the law has not changed in these areas, implementation has since issuance of permits is discretionary. Of particular concern for marinas is a) the strategy of controlling boat congestion in an area by limiting the number of slips, ramps, and parking spaces available, b) stated (and relatively recent) policy of some agencies to treat public waters as day use facilities rather than overnight use facilities, and c) prioritization of local residential shoreline landowner interests over marinas


2) Invasive species regulations Particularly for freshwater facilities, there are mandates and regulations that have the stated goal of reducing the spread of various aquatic invasive species. Many marinas must now be licensed as "shoreline service providers" and send employees to annual training classes on the new regulations. In some cases new equipment is required. Locally for me, these laws are relatively new.



3) Increased setbacks and new restrictions on construction in a floodplain. By their nature, most marinas have some facilities located in a floodplain and close to the shore. Historically, it was a common and accepted practice to construct low-value improvements, such as restroom/shower buildings, deck/picnic areas, and parking, in these areas. It is increasingly difficult to obtain these sorts of permits making it impossible for some marinas to update their facilities or expand.


4) Loss of cost-effective wastewater disposal alternatives A regulatory area also affecting RV campgrounds, commercial-scale on-site wastewater treatment systems have become increasingly expensive and require increasing amounts of dedicated real estate. Marinas that are located outside of an area served by city water and sewer are affected. While these regulations are not new, there are ongoing technical changes involving system sizing and groundwater separation that add substantial costs. As in other areas, waivers, grandfathering, etc., are increasingly difficult to obtain.


5) New mandates regarding shore power While not necessarily a bad thing for boaters, the requirement for GFCI protection of shore power pedestals is adding new burdens. In particular it means that lower-end marinas can no longer purchase used shore power pedestals from other marinas that are upgrading, and there are higher maintenance costs since GFCIs tend to fail often in dockside service.


6) Problems obtaining insurance Friends in the business tell me that insurance underwriting requirements have become more strict. In particular there are increasing requirements to physically separate patron foot traffic from areas where equipment is used e.g. travellifts, forklifts for dry stack, launch ramps, mast cranes. The layout of many marinas doesn't permit such isolation without significant new construction to change traffic patterns. Requirements for separation of fuel storage and dispensing equipment (gasoline/diesel/propane) from other uses is another problem area where there are few good alternatives at some sites.


7) Increasing costs and loss of vendors for waste fluid disposal Generally, it has become more difficult and expensive to dispose of waste gasoline, diesel, drain oil, coolant, paint, etc. Marinas that also provide repair services are affected.


What I'm seeing is that new marinas and marinas that are growing are ones that have considerable local governmental sponsorship because they bring commerce to an area that needs jobs. Some are municipally owned. Some are supported by casinos.



On the other hand it is the smaller, individually owned facilities that are most affected.

So first off, I run a small business and several items you list are simply the kind of things a poor businessman uses as an excuse for their failure. If performing a 3 hour annual training class has any kind of material impact on your business....you don't deserve to be in business! If installing GFCI breakers on your breaker panel or your shore power pedestals (and those are some truly ancient shore power pedestals if you can't do that) has a material impact on your business, then again, you were pretty marginal to start with.

Second, most of the other items would impact any owner of the marina, megacorp or not. Thus not supporting this assertion that the poor little families selling their marinas for several millions dollars are being forced out because only big companies can play any more. If you can't grandfather structures or get permits any more or it costs more for waste disposal , that impacts any owner of that marina equally.

All this crying about all these regulations (in the previous posters case from the 80s) putting the poor little guy out of business right now make nice political fodder for a certain point of view, but they don't stand up to actual scrutiny. When a bunch of families are sitting on an asset worth several million dollars that requires a lot of work on their part to generate revenue and someone comes and offers to pay them cash money for it....a bunch will go ahead and sell. No big bad 'gumint or long list of regulations needed for the simple and obvious answer. Occams Razor and all that.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

No big bad 'gumint or long list of regulations needed for the simple and obvious answer. Occams Razor and all that.

While we're exchanging tired cliches, this one seems appropriate:
"It's always easy for the guy who doesn't have to do it".


The reality is it takes more than a "3 hour training class" to comply with a myriad of regulations. Cherry picking one simple one is a transparent attempt to minimize the burden dozens of similar regs create.



Similarly, it's patently ludicrous to compare the burden on a small, privately owned marina with how those same regulations affect a large corporation with their own legal staff. The compliance effort is clearly less onerous on the big boys than it is one a small business owner.



While it is fashionable to minimize the regulatory burden on marina businesses, it serves only to show how little some actually understand about running one.

[jfischgrund]

Six out of the seven regulations cited as 'onerous' are environmental and safety regulations. And the regulations are there because of the abuses in those areas by some marina operators. Those regulations alone don't drive anyone out of the marina business and if marina operators don't want to follow regulations that protect us all from pollution or are safety measures, they are doing everyone, including themselves, a disservice.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

While we're exchanging tired cliches, this one seems appropriate:
"It's always easy for the guy who doesn't have to do it".


The reality is it takes more than a "3 hour training class" to comply with a myriad of regulations. Cherry picking one simple one is a transparent attempt to minimize the burden dozens of similar regs create.



Similarly, it's patently ludicrous to compare the burden on a small, privately owned marina with how those same regulations affect a large corporation with their own legal staff. The compliance effort is clearly less onerous on the big boys than it is one a small business owner.



While it is fashionable to minimize the regulatory burden on marina businesses, it serves only to show how little some actually understand about running one.

Frankly it's a bit baffling to accuse someone responding directly to another post in a conversation the two of them are having as "cherry picking"? And as someone who runs a small company in another highly regulated industry (power generation), I'm happy to compare my experiences dealing with regulations to your experience running a marina. In my world even a dozen 3 hour training requirements aren't going to kill anyone with a modicum of competence, so interested to hear of your personal experiences to the contrary in the marina business.

That said, the fact is there aren't "dozens of similar" regulations that have just popped up in the last couple years that are forcing family owned marina's out. One assumes that asked for examples you would all provide your best ones, and the best ones are apparently a 3 hour annual training requirement that only applies in a couple places in the country or some nearly 40 year old regulations? Again, it's easy to cry about the big bad government and "regulations" but when asked to provide a list of specific regulations that have come into play in the past couple years its clear that its really minimal, and as I pointed out most impact any owner of the marina in a similar manner. Are there a handful of requirements, most of which have existed for decades, that are easier for a big corporation to handle than a small company? Absolutely. Is that what's causing, right now, family marinas to sell to big companies? Yeah, that's probably one of several million reasons and all the rest have a $ in front of them.

But hey, if you can provide just one dozen of these dozens of recently passed regulations that are killing family owned marinas, which I don't imagine would be hard based on your experience as the guy who has to do it, I certainly remain open to persuasion. Nothing fashionable here. Contrary to your assertions that I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm pretty familiar with these regulations from a former life in an agency that enforced them so I'm far more interested in specifics than fashion.

[paralog]

Originally Posted by sailingabe41ds

Where I live the local government dictates what percent of the tenants can be live on board. In my area living on board is alot cheaper than living in an apartment by 3-4 fold and unfortunately the live on board usually have the worse most unsightly boats. This is by no means a statement on the OP ...only what it is like in my marina. Most of us in the marina prefer not to have live on board and so not all the blame can be on corporate or government but the wishes of others who have there boats there.

Abe

So why do you not force the liveaboards to clean up all the crap on their boats. Not all of liveaboards have boats covered in old rusty bikes, old bits of engines etc. Us liveaboards are usually the first to move boats when fires break out or fight fires on burning boats etc so it is always good to have some liveaboards in a marina. Those boats covered in junk also bother me as they are the first thing that comes into someone's head when you tell them you live on your boat.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

So first off, I run a small business and several items you list are simply the kind of things a poor businessman uses as an excuse for their failure. If performing a 3 hour annual training class has any kind of material impact on your business....you don't deserve to be in business! If installing GFCI breakers on your breaker panel or your shore power pedestals (and those are some truly ancient shore power pedestals if you can't do that) has a material impact on your business, then again, you were pretty marginal to start with.

The problem is the cumulative effect, particularly for items with recurring costs or consequences.

Second, most of the other items would impact any owner of the marina, megacorp or not.

Larger corporate owners have a single "director of government affairs" or similarly titled person who handles these matters across all properties. This individual becomes expert in compliance strategies for these common problems. They are able to retain more expert legal counsel. They learn though experience at one property, what will and will not work at another. Their size helps when negotiating with contractors and insurers. They are better able to develop relationships with senior regulators and use those to fend off unreasonable demands from inexperienced ones.


In contrast the small owner-operator typically must handle such matters themself. In addition to the dollar cost it poses, it detracts from the sense of independence and authority that is, in nearly all cases, a major motive for people operating a small business.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

I'm pretty familiar with these regulations from a former life in an agency that enforced them

That explains much.


Often the perceived costs, inconvience, etc., of compliance do like rather different from the chair where you sat than from the point of view of the business owner.