IS CRUISING DEAD or DYING, STABLE or GROWING?

[BlackHeron]

"cruisers" forums.

Some of us actually cruise full-time and don't have a dirt home. Yet some people here say cruising in n your own boat should be banned and "cruisers" should be bare-boating a few weeks a year while on vacation.

This forum rarely disappoints...

[barnakiel]

As you noted: some of us.


We have been sailing and living in ours for 17 years now. Hardly trolls then.


However, for every long term cruiser, there will be hundreds of boats that simply sit unused for months in marinas only to see the owner fly in for a fortnight, move it to another marina or anchorage, then fly back home to their business and family.

This is what creates crowded marinas and stock full anchorages. Not cruisers, but rather people who own too much stuff. A boat here and a summer home there.



The huge armies of "cruisers" could just as well rent the boat, not own them. A rented boat gets used by many crews, so there is now one boat only in the marina, not dozens.


While we are grumpy about crowds, we could just as well look more closely at who makes up these crowds.



b.

[BlackHeron]

Most boats sit in marinas most of the time, rarely being used. That's the nature of the beast. The marina industry would hardly be behind such a move away from this profitable paradigm as it is their bread and butter as long as the owners keep on paying.

We hardly ever stay in a marina anyhow, and have never had much of an issue finding an open slip or mooring the few times we have. I'd much rather see boats slowly deteriorating and rotting away in floating trailer park marinas than left out on the hook unattended as "wet storage" in a nearby anchorage. Overcrowding of cruisers has never been an issue for us, but the clogging of useful anchorages with sketchy derilict boats certainly can be in some areas.

Usually these derilict boats take up the very best spots near good dinghy docks in the more cruisable cities on the Atlantic coast all along the ICW and nearby inland waterways/harbors. This problem seems to be getting worse by the year -not just for cruisers but for the local municipalities and states that have to clean up the mess when they eventually sink or drag up ashore.

[sailorboy1]

It doesn't really matter much if cruising is dead or dying, stable or growing. If you want to cruise, cruise. If you don't want to cruise, don't.

I have been cruising 4 years so that is all I have to compare it to. But seems pretty alive and well to me.

[Lou-In-NJ]

I've had a chance to post my responses and a couple of questions on the first 15 posts. I've abbreviated most of the posts I've quoted in an interest of space,but I also provided a reference or link to the original member's post for complete reference, and in case I reference an idea or statement that isn't in my abbreviated quote.
I hope to get to the next 15 tomorrow.
Please feel free to comment further on my responses, or those those of others.

Originally Posted by a64pilot

My belief is that at least in the US that excess income needed to do things like cruise is decreasing, so activities like that are going away.
Or maybe it’s all the money is spent on cell phone data plans and McMansions and new SUV’s ? ...SEE POST#2 for full quote...

I see that myself a64pilot; more folks these days interested in obtaining the Mcmansion, and building an indoor lifestyle, complete with underground gaming/media rooms where both child and adult can spend hours of daytime in a climate controlled virtual world.

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I see a lot of boats that don't get a lot of use. It seems like a lot of people either have the money or the time, but not both.

Yes, rslifkin, a trend I have noticed too, and one caused by several systemic factors that have compounded the issue over the past two decades or so.

Originally Posted by cpisz

I would say that the liveaboard lifestyle is waning. I can't point to concrete numbers but it seems clear that there are increasing barriers going up...SEE POST#4 FOR FULL QUOTE...

It's interesting that marinas are actually restricting liveaboards. First, why do you think that is? And second, what are the environmental issues around living aboard?

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

The cruising population in the US is getting much older...newer cruisers taking their place, not nearly as many as older ones age out. The younger kids don't seem to stick around for more than a season or two before selling or putting their boat in the hard ...anchorages seem to be empty of cruisers, we often have them all to ourselves sharing it perhaps with a few derelict boats slowly rotting away...sometimes boat trash squatting on derelict boats...SEE FULL QUOTE HERE: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3193812

Very interesting observations BlackHeron; especially about the boat squatters. So you see people aging-out and not being replaced by "newly retired", etc. and almost a "homeless" population who use a derelict vessel as shelter. I'm wondering if these derelict vessels are becoming a large enough in number, to become an eye-sore to locals and boaters alike?

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

To me, liveaboard is not the same as cruiser...Part time cruisers is what i guess we are. I have friends that are all similar, and suspect more people will be the same. FULL POST HERE: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3193813

Got it sailjumanji; I think I will be in your category at some point, maybe having a condo or small house in retirement, and maybe split my time 30/70 between boat and home. I gather that many of the retired liveaboards you encountered, were just looking for a different, or cheaper, lifestyle, and were kept motivated by the hope of actually going someplace, someday.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

...I would say cruising is still vastly popular but the distribution has changed...Now there is a more 'vacation cruisers' than ever before...They will often fly in and out of the destinations and lay up their boats off season...(maybe 20 years ago) there were more long range / long duration cruisers - people on unlimited vacations, sailing without fixed schedules, tending to go out there and seek places 'undiscovered' or 'unspoiled' to stay there, far from the crowd...If you add up these two groups, I think now there is about 100% more cruising being done than say 20 years ago. Just one look at many popular Caribbean anchorages confirms this guess too. SEE FULL POST HERE: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3193822

Ok, barnakiel, so you see a doubling in cruisers over the past 20 years, but the nature of the lifestyle of those who are doing it, has changed as well...interesting.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

My view, based on some data and some extrapolation, is that long distance/duration cruising is indeed on the decline. I put this largely down to declining economic situation of younger generations, although Jimmy Cornell (who also says the numbers are in decline) adds political uncertainty and more erratic weather patters due to climate change as causes...The demographic of the typical cruiser has changed in the last 30-40 years. Cruisers are now older and richer...Entry-level boats are now much larger, and carry far more luxuries, than in the past...I do wonder if we'll see a reversal of this as the Baby Boomers sail off into the sunset. Those in the younger generations who have the wherewithal to get off the treadmill may find boat ownership becoming more attractive as the markets decline. Fibreglass lasts a long time, and there already is a glut of used boats out there.[ FULL TEXT of POST HERE: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3193837

What's interesting Mike OReilly, is that the graph you posted shows a peak in U.S. boat registrations that coincide with the first baby-boomers turning 60; I wonder if there is a correlation? We were in the second year of the Dot-Com bust, recovery, and maybe pre-retirees were gearing-up for the next phase of their lives? I also wonder if the desire for contemporary land-lubber luxury will
trump adventure-seeking. Also, TGF fiberglass for those of us who want longevity in the hull, and consequently, boats that can be 40 years old and still highly serviceable!

Originally Posted by thinwater

My impression is that the average member of this forum is not far off the average in this data. And the average is getting older...Many traditional pastimes have gone down this path...

FULL TEXT of POST HERE: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3193855

Thinwater, your graph is interesting in that it seems to show that the mid- babybooer generation actually was, and remains the peak of boat owners since the chart starts in the year 2000. This would be the generation who entered the work-force in the late 1970's did very well in the '80s & '90s and still had enough working years in front of them to seemingly, not worry about the Dot-Com bust. And it looks like this same generation carries on into the future according to the projections; but it's the backside of those graphs that look wicked in their decline!

Originally Posted by oceanshoretiga

There is a basic question to be asked first, as noted in some of the posts: how do you define a cruiser? In my own research 1978-82, mainly in the Pacific islands, I started with a basic criteria. Have you been away from your home port for more than 18 months? [how I arrived at the number took some reading and thought.] Even then estimates of cruisers were simply that, estimates... All I know is that we see ‘cruisers’ coming by every so often, probably as many as a 10 or 20 years ago. But, to estimate now is beyond me as I’m not ‘out there’... FULL TEXT of POST HERE: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3193863

Jim, you mentioned a definition for "cruisers" which is helpful in that people have different ideas about what constitutes cruising vs. other sailing activities. But the sociological reasons are even more interesting to me, if you can elaborate on your ideas, from what you have seen?

Originally Posted by Godshalk

I am familiar with several cruising clubs in the US and Europe that have looked at this carefully. They have seen the average age of members steadily increasing over decades, and portion of "young" members decreasing. Each is making a concerted effort to attract younger members. Meanwhile, overall membership growth has been good but still not largely young new members. My local club has seen reduced interest in cruising and some shift to power boats. This year is interesting: in Scandinavia, demand for used sailboats has increased strongly as, apparently, people see sailing as a safe recreation. Here in Maine, things got off to a slow start but are picking up considerably. ORIGINAL POST HERE:https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3193871

Godshalk, my club is dealing with the same thing, overall membership is down, and the demographic is average age seems to be moving upward. That's not to say we haven't added new younger members, but the people we seem to be adding are in their early to mid 40s. The club has purchased 4- 26' Colgate boats that are able to be signed-out for 4 hours at a time for members who pay to join this program. This program is predominantly populated with new members who are looking to get themselves, spouses, and children, experience sailing, without the cost of boat ownership and the risk that other family members don't take to the hobby. The program worked, as designed, for me in that it got me back into sailing and solidified my resolve to buy a boat, which I did within two years.

Originally Posted by mvmojo

Covid may have a positive impact. Brokers say sales are strong right now & I've been told it's almost impossible to buy a decent used camper/rv. ... We definitely need some younger blood out here! FULL POST TEXT HERE: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3193872

mvmojo, I definitely concur with the need to see younger people out there! The other thing is what you said about the RV market. A few months before the pandemic, I had a friend tell me that he had ordered a Sprinter van camper; he and his wife have no children, and both have long-steady employment in I.T. (they're not digital nomads), and they see themselves being on the road, traveling the U.S., Canada and maybe Mexico, for months at a time. I guess the pandemic may have increased this demand.

[sailjumanji]

Lou, the marina in my backyard had issues with a few liveaboard boats that were floating mess, accumulating stuff on the dock, etc. One of the boats installed an air con on the deck, and ran flexible ducting fore and aft for cooling below. They had rules against this, but rather than enforce the violators, owner just ended all liveaboards. Its too bad as the few that I knew there were quite tidy and maintained their boats, and were very friendly and helpful. They also provided a bit of security by observation.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I'm always bemused by the "we need to get more folks out sailing" thoughts so often heard here. Unless one is selling stuff or services to sailors/cruisers, what advantage is gained by further crowding our waters and anchorages. With waiting lists at many marinas, mooring fields chockers, and good anchorages filling up, w hy on earth would one want to encourage more sailors?

On the other hand, there are still cruising grounds where any desired degree of aloneness can be had. Perhaps not near major population centers, but accessible to those who want to be alone at anchor.

Jim

When I brought my boat from BKH to the Panhandle I left BKH about 9:00AM (never looked at the tide I just get up late) and anchored off Middle Cape for the night. Not another boat in sight. Went to the beach the next day, seven miles of white sand with not a human footprint on it. Next night off Cape Romano Shoals, again no boats in sight. Visited the Domed Houses and next night ducked in at Ft. Myers; there were some boats. Next night at Egmont Key, nice big anchorage with three other boats. Next night at the far North end of Anclote Key behind a little sandbar just short of the last red marker. Not another boat in sight. Same for Cedar Key duck in, no boats in sight. Up the St Marks River after a long sail.

Sure I could have gone in Marinas and on the was South I stopped in the Clearwater City Marina to catch up with an old high school buddy; lots of boats there.

The thing is not everyone has the same definition of cruising. Unless I have a good reason I would always rather anchor out than go in a marina if I am cruising.

[barnakiel]

Yes. As we discussed earlier, and more than once: It is crowded in the popular cruising destinations. Very crowded at times (e.g. Med in the summer, Caribbean Nov-June, etc). Because it is so easy to get there, because it is so easy to sail there, so close to big supermarkets, bars and airports.



Away from such places and seasons, there is plenty of space that are virtually empty. If someone loves cruising, they will be very happy, much as outside on the deck there may be some snow. Or maybe you are alone in the atoll, and the entry is all by the eye. No gps use = no crowds.



All you need is a proper cruising boat and you can go to dozens of such amazing destinations.



Today the 'cruising frontier' is simply elsewhere. What is easy and has bars is crowded, out there in the wild yonder you will be all alone or with maybe one or two yachts - and a good ' old school' company.


b.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Today the 'cruising frontier' is simply elsewhere. What is easy and has bars is crowded, out there in the wild yonder you will be all alone or with maybe one or two yachts - and a good ' old school' company.

I'm with b. In the last four seasons of seasonal cruising I can count the number of anchorages I've shared with other recreational boaters on one hand.

Crowded? Heck, it's a small celebration to see a fellow cruiser.

My guide is to seek out places with little or no internet service. That seems to cull the masses pretty effectively.

[CruisingCouple]

We went on a 9 month stint in the western Caribbean with our 44ft sailboat. Had a blast, found living on the sailboat a little too inconvenient. We weren't fully retired yet at that time, we sold the boat in the Virgin Islands and came home.

During that time we met a lot of couples cruising and living on the boat. I'd say median age about the same as us - we're 60.

This time around we are retired, have a good stash in the bank from sale of our business, we bought an old steel motor yacht and refit her. We plan on cruising for two winters, have the boat hauled out and set in the yard for hurricane season, then sell the boat and come home after the second winter. We own a lake home in northern Wisconsin. We have no real goals or schedule as to where we are going other than one - we want to sail the river system to the Gulf this time. We didn't do that the first time.

Living on the boat year 'round is not for us. We'd prefer to be at our lake home in the summer and fish the freshwater lakes with our bass boat. The attraction of cruising, for us, is to escape in the winter after working for 40 years and have an adventure while we're still young. We love diving, snorkeling and fishing. Living in a slip in a marina and moving from place to place year 'round, is not for us.

I don't know if we're "typical" or not, but judging from others we met the first time I'd say we are. I think there is the hardcore that live on the boat long-term and have been doing it for years. There is the middle of the road (probably like us) that have the money to do it part time. There is the younger crowd that I can't say we've actually met, but I see them on YouTube all the time doing selfies of their adventure and evidently trying to fund it with YouTube and Patreon. Then there is the wannabees that think they might like to cruise but don't have the money or time and very few of those actually ever do it.

From what we experienced on our first cruise the marinas and convenient anchorages are crowded - way too crowded for our tastes and it looks like everybody and his brother owns a boat. But the world is a big place and you don't have to hang out there. Get away from those areas and it doesn't look like anybody is cruising and that's the way we like it. Our first boat just was not properly fitted for long-term anchorages off the beaten path. But it was all part of the learning experience.

[waterman46]

OP, you mentioned you have children in the mid-teens. Any you wonder if kids today don't get into sailing for some reason. It may not be too late, if you live near a yacht club, to get your kids into a youth sailing program. I got into one in Annapolis when I was about 14, and really loved it. In summer we had lessons during the week, and dinghy racing every Saturday against the other clubs in the area, and believe it or not, the program was totally free!

Or maybe I was just destined to love the water and traveling, like my Dad. I don't know, but I think if you give most kids a chance to sail a dinghy, they will really take to it, and it may become a lifetime hobby.

[killyourguitar]

Originally Posted by cpisz

I would say that the liveaboard lifestyle is waning. I can't point to concrete numbers but it seems clear that there are increasing barriers going up. The number of marinas allowing liveabords is dropping quickly. Two in my area alone in the past few years no longer allow it. The expense of maintaining a boat is going up. Boatyards that allow people to work on thier own boat are going away do to legal and environmental problems. Restrictions on anchoring are increasing rapidly. It has become an increasingly difficult lifestyle with a sigma of vagabond associated with it. There are still people starting though, however they seem to be more affluent. A couple in thier 40s just bought the boat next too me, and moved aboard with thier cat and sailed off up the US east coast. Bless them. I don't think that it will ever completely die unless the government just outlaws it, which could happen. Requiring people to have a physical address and not a mail forwarding address would pretty much kill the lifestyle.

The exact people killing boating is who I want to avoid to the degree I'm ready to sail away but.... where to go?

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by killyourguitar

The exact people killing boating is who I want to avoid to the degree I'm ready to sail away but.... where to go?

Cold waters, offshore waters (Pacific and Indian), local waters off-season. Etc.


Anywhere where there are no bars, poor mobile / Internet coverage, etc.



The world is your oyster.



b.

[killyourguitar]

Not for long. Ol Elon is polluting space with thousands of bulk tracking devices. We'll be taxed, fined, feed, tolled, penalized and tariffed remotely very soon. I'm seeing cruisers locked out at sea and chased around until their exhausted ready to go overboard already. Just the other day my neighbors were crying about how they were in duress and ran up on the rocks after the sheriff cursed them out for "being so stupid to be out after dark with a derelict engine" I believe them after the way I was treated the other day when I was out picking up trash and the sheriff grilled me for 45 minutes as I answered every question fired at me. I'm tired. I just want to go where there's peace and tranquility but I'm discouraged at the thought that there's nowhere to go unless we can keep figuring out how pay the turf fees before we lose everything.

[BlackHeron]

Learn to anchor quicky and be able to leave quickly. Learn to keep your boat in sailing condition at all times. Learn to move on and keep moving, at least every few weeks or so.

We've never been continuously harassed by cops or F&W because we never stay too long in one spot and overstay out welcome. If asked to move then you move. The folks who can't or won't move are not cruisers, they are squatters. They are the ones who are causing all the trouble for the rest of us.

I don't have any issue with moving along after two weeks in one spot if asked -we rarely stay for longer than a week, and two months is a really REALLY long time.

If your boat is a derilict and can't move under it's own power you are no sailor. If the locals are constantly sending out cops and F&W officers to grill you for 45 minutes you are not cruisers, you are just one step up from camping under the bridge.