Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 27-02-2019, 19:49   #91
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,856
Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Taken from the abstract of a recent research paper done by the Federal Reserve Board (ďthe FedĒ).

https://www.federalreserve.gov/econr...2018080pap.pdf

Personal anecdotes aside, there is mountains of actual research and data to show that younger generations, starting with Gen-X, but accelerating with Millennial and now Gen Z or iGen as some call them, have less wealth and less economic stability compared to Baby Boomer and older generations. emilecantinís description is an accurate one.
Mike,

I read your paper which represents one personís viewpoint, NOT any sort of official government position on the subject. Basically it references that the younger folks have personally chosen to take on more debt and therefore are more likely as a result of such behavior... to have less disposable income. No duh.

So whoís fault is that? Itís a good thing they have people like you to make excusses for them in order to continue to justify their spending habits... spending what they donít have instead of saving up before they buy stuff.
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-02-2019, 23:44   #92
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 10,163
Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Mike,

I read your paper which represents one person’s viewpoint, NOT any sort of official government position on the subject. Basically it references that the younger folks have personally chosen to take on more debt and therefore are more likely as a result of such behavior... to have less disposable income. No duh.

So who’s fault is that? It’s a good thing they have people like you to make excusses for them in order to continue to justify their spending habits... spending what they don’t have instead of saving up before they buy stuff.
It’s not “one person’s viewpoint.” It’s an economic analysis by three respected, and certainly not “lefty”, economists. I never said anything about it being official government position. And you appear not to have read it very carefully. It says, amongst a great many other things, that based on a lot of factors, “the kids today” have lower incomes and are taking on greater debt loads.

Here’s some of the salient quotes:

Discretionary consumption:
"Our results suggest that when age, income, and the other factors that determine consumption are controlled for, we find little variation in consumption expenditures between generations.”

Income:
“...the real average full-time labor earnings of a millennial male household head in 2014 were about the same as those for a comparable male Generation X household head in 1998 and over 10 percent lower than those for a comparable male baby boomer household head in 1978.”

"the net growth of real family income was smaller for young married couples than for married couples of all ages during this span of years. … The PSID data also show that income inequality has increased considerably during the past few decades.”


So consumption is about the same, but incomes have declined.

Now some of the reasons why Millennials are poorer:

Rising costs:
"First, the rising share of housing expenditures reflects, in part, the faster rate of increase for house prices than for other goods and services. Second, the health-care expenditure share rose from 5.5 percent to above 9 percent for the whole population, likely reflecting the faster rate of increase for health-care costs than for other goods and services. Similarly, the education expenditure share rose notably from about 1.5 percent to 2.5 percent as the rise in college tuition also outpaced general inflation.”

… pretty much what I and emilecantin (and others) have said.

There are some positive developments. Food and clothing are cheaper. And mortgage debt levels are lower for Millennials (as compared to previous generations at the same period). Although the reason for this is b/c Millennials can’t afford to buy houses, so aren’t.

The summary says it clearly:

"We showed that millennials do have lower real incomes than members of earlier generations when they were at similar ages, and millennials also appear to have accumulated fewer assets. The comparisons for debt are somewhat mixed, but it seems fair to conclude that millennials have levels of real debt that are about the same as those of members of Generation X when they were young and more than those of the baby boomers.”

(did you really read it?)
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2019, 04:33   #93
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,856
Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
It’s not “one person’s viewpoint.” It’s an economic analysis by three respected, and certainly not “lefty”, economists. I never said anything about it being official government position. And you appear not to have read it very carefully. It says, amongst a great many other things, that based on a lot of factors, “the kids today” have lower incomes and are taking on greater debt loads.

Here’s some of the salient quotes:

Discretionary consumption:
"Our results suggest that when age, income, and the other factors that determine consumption are controlled for, we find little variation in consumption expenditures between generations.”

Income:
“...the real average full-time labor earnings of a millennial male household head in 2014 were about the same as those for a comparable male Generation X household head in 1998 and over 10 percent lower than those for a comparable male baby boomer household head in 1978.”

"the net growth of real family income was smaller for young married couples than for married couples of all ages during this span of years. … The PSID data also show that income inequality has increased considerably during the past few decades.”


So consumption is about the same, but incomes have declined.

Now some of the reasons why Millennials are poorer:

Rising costs:
"First, the rising share of housing expenditures reflects, in part, the faster rate of increase for house prices than for other goods and services. Second, the health-care expenditure share rose from 5.5 percent to above 9 percent for the whole population, likely reflecting the faster rate of increase for health-care costs than for other goods and services. Similarly, the education expenditure share rose notably from about 1.5 percent to 2.5 percent as the rise in college tuition also outpaced general inflation.”

… pretty much what I and emilecantin (and others) have said.

There are some positive developments. Food and clothing are cheaper. And mortgage debt levels are lower for Millennials (as compared to previous generations at the same period). Although the reason for this is b/c Millennials can’t afford to buy houses, so aren’t.

The summary says it clearly:

"We showed that millennials do have lower real incomes than members of earlier generations when they were at similar ages, and millennials also appear to have accumulated fewer assets. The comparisons for debt are somewhat mixed, but it seems fair to conclude that millennials have levels of real debt that are about the same as those of members of Generation X when they were young and more than those of the baby boomers.”

(did you really read it?)
Yes I did. To sum it up.... They work less, borrow more and have less as a result of their behavior.... Which also holds true for older people who do the same.

Well, who’s fault is that when they get themselves in a financial mess? I work with plenty of enterprising, hard working younger people who are just the opposite of what you and your article describe. To get ahead today it takes the same work ethic as it did 40-50 years ago. If one only wants to put in an average to below average effort, they can expect an average to below average lifestyle..... period. Things haven’t changed a bit.
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2019, 08:09   #94
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 10,163
Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Yes I did. To sum it up.... They work less, borrow more and have less as a result of their behavior.... Which also holds true for older people who do the same.

Well, whoís fault is that when they get themselves in a financial mess? I work with plenty of enterprising, hard working younger people who are just the opposite of what you and your article describe. To get ahead today it takes the same work ethic as it did 40-50 years ago. If one only wants to put in an average to below average effort, they can expect an average to below average lifestyle..... period. Things havenít changed a bit.
Ken, this is categorically NOT what the report says. Iíve quoted to you, and everyone, what the report ACTUALLY says. You are providing your opinion, not the facts.

As the famous quote goes: ďYou are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.Ē
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2019, 10:50   #95
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,856
Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Ken, this is categorically NOT what the report says. I’ve quoted to you, and everyone, what the report ACTUALLY says. You are providing your opinion, not the facts.

As the famous quote goes: “You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.”
Rather than simply read an opinion piece which shares and bolsters your own opinion on the subject, may I ask when was the last time you actually participated in the workforce and mixed, spoke with and rubbed elbows with some of the younger and more enterprising individuals? I was just there 20 minutes ago, and spend more than 60 hours a week working with them.

And you....?

I can tell you from a firsthand recent experience, that very few people here in the US share your pessimism towards the labor force.
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2019, 11:19   #96
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 10,163
Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Rather than simply read an opinion piece which shares and bolsters your own opinion on the subject, may I ask when was the last time you actually participated in the workforce and mixed, spoke with and rubbed elbows with some of the younger and more enterprising individuals? I was just there 20 minutes ago, and spend more than 60 hours a week working with them.

And you....?

I can tell you from a firsthand recent experience, that very few people here in the US share your pessimism towards the labor force.
This is NOT a simple opinion piece. Why do you keep mischaracterizing the work?And itís certainly not singular in its findings. There is a MOUNTAIN of economic and sociological evidence out there if you cared to look. Why is it so hard for you to accept data and research?

Your personal anecdotes are great. They are one small data point. This doesnít make your personal experience wrong, but it says very little about the broad picture weíre discussing.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2019, 22:24   #97
Registered User
 
rsn48's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Qualicum Beach, Vancouver Island, BC
Boat: 1969 30 Mariner Sedan Cruiser
Posts: 735
Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

So I've given this whole "the kids are lazier today" consideration. I've worked with thousands of kids over 35 years in Canada with Air Cadets and Army Cadets and I can tell you, they are just as active as before.

I'm sure some here have lazy kids, I was a lazy kid in the 50's and 60's, but I also ran half marathons latter in life, many a 10 K, bicycled to work - an hour commuter there, then another hour home. In Victoria BC because of infrastructure, more and more are commuting on bikes. Create infrastructure and they will come.

Tastes change, what we did as kids we did because that is what was there. What kids do today is because that is there now. If smartphones and tablets, existed back then, I would have had them. The closest I ever got to a tablet was etch-a-sketch. For some reason adults today think what they did back then was great and so much is terrible today. In actual fact, kids, teens, millenniums are more informed about sex, politics, social media (what was that back then), music, electronics (what was that back then, yes I had a reel to reel tape deck recording music off the radio).

When I was into sailboating, my favourite magazine was Practical Boater because it catered to the real sailboaters in the UK. I recall one article saying the average sized sailboat was 24 feet so their articles supported that crowd.

I just grabbed a Pacific Yachting January 2019, no sailboat review, that surprised me as usually there is a sailboat and power boat review. So the powerboat review is a Kingfisher 3425 fishing vessel (sport) for the crowd who might actually want to spend a night or two on the water, what a concept.

I then grabbed a March 2018 Pacific Yachting issue and the sailboat reviewed is a Southerly 540 that begins at 1.3 million (American, add 25% to convert to Canadian). And the power boat reviewed is a Back Cove 32 priced at a reasonable $520,000 American. I can't imagine why today's folks in their late twenties and thirties aren't getting into boating.
rsn48 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2019, 22:55   #98
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,856
Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

What makes you think that younger people today need to start out with a brand new $1.3 million dollar Southerly 540? When I was in my twenties, all we could afford was a beat up used OíDay 20. Why canít people today start out with a Cal 20 or something similar?

Why? Because tastes change and people become interested in different stuff. Back in the mid 80ís, our out-of-reach dream boat was a Baba 35 which when fully equipped went for around $100,000 back then. So we waited and worked our way up.

Nothing has changed, boating will always be expensive for the high end stuff, but thereís always plenty of starter boats around if anyone is interested. But nobody is.
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2019, 01:59   #99
Registered User
 
wkstar's Avatar

Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 77
Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

wkstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2019, 10:19   #100
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: On a round sphere in a planetary system
Boat: 1977 Bristol 29.9 Hull #17
Posts: 570
Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BugzyCan View Post
The post 1970 idea is interesting, I would probably bump that up even further, maybe the year 2000 when cell phones and ipads became mainstream. My kids are lazy these days, no interest in sailing or motorcycles. They sit at home playing video games and I have to struggle to get them to come outside for a walk with the dog without some kind of bribe. When I was a kid, we spent all day, every day, outside.
This ^^^

There are exceptions of course, But by and large my generations children are physically weaker, intellectually lazier, their political acuity leaves a lot to be desired to say the least, no real sence of history, less apt to go outside, except to get in a car, and then sit some more, and when they get where they are going, they sit even more, and stare at little screens. So many canít even walk without holding their phone continuously. Itís really quite sad.
Again there are exceptions.... that, and much of this can be said about my generation as well...



Fair winds,
Pegu Club is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2019, 14:00   #101
Registered User
 
Simi 60's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Australia
Boat: Milkraft 60 ex trawler
Posts: 3,161
Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pegu Club View Post
This ^^^

There are exceptions of course, But by and large my generations children are physically weaker, intellectually lazier, their political acuity leaves a lot to be desired to say the least, no real sence of history, less apt to go outside, except to get in a car, and then sit some more, and when they get where they are going, they sit even more, and stare at little screens. So many canít even walk without holding their phone continuously. Itís really quite sad.
..
Idiocracy has become reality 450 years early
Simi 60 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2019, 14:28   #102
Registered User
 
Fore and Aft's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Gympie
Boat: Volkscruiser
Posts: 1,485
Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

Pegu Club from what I have seen of my sons mates I think you are right about them being addicted to screen time. We had a meeting at my boys school about this and all I could think was what piss weak parents they are. We are the parents we set the rules. We are considered hard parents by a lot of our friends but our kids lack of screen time does not seem to effect them at all. The trouble is screen time is like free babysitting for time poor parents.
Kenomac I agree you have to work more than a 40 hour week to get ahead. You are also right about starter boats as well. I see plenty of them but no one seems to want them.
Attitudes and times change I think it is just evolution, maybe we are just all cave men sitting around reminiscing about the last big mammoth hunt.
Cheers
Fore and Aft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2019, 15:26   #103
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 8,545
Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

Not sure we are the first generation of adults to declare how lazy todays kids are. Its a pretty old and worn refrain.
Quote:
ďThe children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.Ē

― Socrates, 390BC
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2019, 16:35   #104
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New York, New York
Boat: Dufour Safari 27'
Posts: 1,640
Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Not sure we are the first generation of adults to declare how lazy todays kids are. Its a pretty old and worn refrain.

When I was their age I had to swim to school. It was up river. In both directions. Through a foot of snow. With sharks. And I had to get up an hour before I went to bed just to get there in time.
ArmyDaveNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2019, 17:08   #105
Registered User

Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 83
Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

Kids today are the same as kids 50 years ago, they just have more distractions. All my kids sail, At our club where we sail, I asked when we joined if it was alright if my sons could take the launch to our boat with out me. They said "You let your kids sail your boat?" Damn right, my sons take out our sailboat with their friends all the time. They will race it on Wed night when I am not around etc. All my kids sail, They started when they were 9 racing Optis moving into Lasers and 420's. The two I have in college sail there too. I think the problem today is the parents not the kids. The parents need to trust their kids, have LOTS OF INSURANCE, and let them get outside. None of these kids could afford the Boat show cruising boats. My sons, all engineering students, are constantly fiddling, and looking at boats to buy to fix up.

If you want more people to sail, it starts with parents taking their kids sailing.

I agree with many of the points here. These new sailboats are way too expensive for most people, and after a couple of hurricanes down south the number of good used yachts has decreased increasing the demand and price for a good used sailboat.

IMHO.
Hamish_ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cruise, cruiser

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine Hours: How Many Are Too Many? Velma Engines and Propulsion Systems 38 03-03-2021 22:51
How Many ex Commercial Fishermen Out There ? Geoduck General Sailing Forum 27 06-03-2012 15:05
How many have a retirement fund setup? How many think you need one? WannaBeTraveln Liveaboard's Forum 164 23-11-2008 16:05

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:35.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.