Blue Water Cruiser - What size

[bruc]

Dymaxion, TrentePieds. Thanks for the levity! I think Mensa-boy OP has been drinking way to much coffee..... The realities of sailing will eventually appear in his morning java.

[TrentePieds]

Ah, yes - Dear Old Bucky :-)! Everyone of his "dymaxion" novelties fell by the wayside. Or disappeared without a trace. Hardly to be wondered at, since, as we all knew in my radical youth, THE ESTABLISHMENT was out to get him. It was THE ESTABLISHMENT that put insurmountable obstacles in his way and made the Dymaxion car (powered by a flathead Ford V8 just like the one in my 1950 Meteor) totally unroadworthy. It wasn't bad physics - it was THE ESTABLISHMENT! It is a fact universally acknowledged that the banks on orders from FDR put the blocks to Bucky, lest the Big Three automakers should go belly up as a result of the Dymaxions success. :-)

Yet, empirical evidence be damned, the faithful are still carrying the torch.

The biggie in my youth was Bucky's "geodesic" house. Around here, in "Supernatural British Columbia", you still see the occasional one being used by superannuated hippies. Neat application of basic physics, of course, but it's a problem for some of us that being within a geodesic dome turns you into an oozly-woozly bird in no time at all. You will recall that the singular trait of the oozly-woozly is that it flies around in ever-decreasing circles until it makes itself invisible by disappearing up its own je ne sais quoi :-)

TrentePieds

[softdown]

Notes to OP Andrei.....
Well, you certainly have huge cajones. Sometimes that is all that you need.

People get old when they give up their dreams. Try not to do that. I aged 20 years in a year when I let go of my dreams.

Blue water safety or blue water cruising? Safer boats are larger and heavier and slower. While many have proved their point with smaller vessels, I wouldn't want to do global circumnavigation with less than 40' minimum. Docking and pullout fees are much higher. Who needs to dock anyway? Seriously...you don't need moors and slips unless you like following the crowd. Be an eagle, you are already halfway there.

I was in your shoes not long ago. I'd suggest a medium sized boat to gain experience and learn what is important to you. Speed? Safety? Comfort? Technology?

This is a great forum. You would have been ripped to shreds at sailnet. Not your fault, just a lot of rude prima donnas in those parts.

This Old Boat.....Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia....couple popular reads though dated. Sailboats used to be affordable. That changed in the 80's.

Whatever you think it will cost.....triple that for starts.

Sailors are salty and quite proud of their experience.

Youtube sailing videos are often pretty educational.

You bit off a very large challenge this time.

Big brains? Nice...but nature will chew you up and spit you out if you don't respect her. She does not care if you are bleeding out with a couple dozen new bone fragments.

Auto-pilot

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by softdown

Blue water safety or blue water cruising? Safer boats are larger and heavier and slower. While many have proved their point with smaller vessels, I wouldn't want to do global circumnavigation with less than 40' minimum.

I found it interesting that our 45 foot was a pretty average sized boat in the Eastern Caribbean. When we got far into our circumnavigation we were definitely bigger than average. The average was more like 40 feet and there were a significant number of 33 and 34 footers (and a few Vegas and other 27 footers)

[Hudson Force]

I find it difficult to scoff at youthful hubris and speculative innovation. There has rarely been an advance in technology that didn't spring from a thought that the older and more experienced considered as useless and stupid.

Advances in technology also require the freedom to allow people to repeated attempt and fail.

[andrei_ca]

I'm still here. Listening patiently. I've learned to swallow bitter medicine for good health a long time ago so thanks for the contribution.

I know how life kills people, I work in an artistic domain, I'm alive fortunately, still. But you have to understand, I'm just getting into this so I'm prone to saying stupid things. I'm not looking for a boat yesterday, this is pre-planning 1-2 years in advance. Some other guys might research through these forums, I know I did, so keep it clean if possible, don't make thigs too personal.

It's not that I have big balls. It's an illusion. I've worked with one or other skill at the time. For drama I built sets, for my surfboards I did eventually major fiberglass repairs, I fixed my car, I worked with steel, my father is an engineer, my grandfather was a carpenter (built his own neat house from scratch). I've learned and I draw from so many resources that I have the intuition and ability to see what works and what doesn't. Yes, I am probably 80% wrong about money at this point - but I have no outlines, no drafts, what do you expect. For those lashing out, you can talk about your experience explicitly and nicely and I think I'll understand you better instead of trying to see in between the lines, especially if you give figures and concrete examples. So take it down a few knots.

Cheers,

Andrei

[TrentePieds]

Nobody here is "lashing out" :-) Hudson spoke of hubris, and well he might, for the inevitable nemesis, if you are on the bounding main, which is where you say you would like to be, can be absolutely deadly. Not only for yourself but for anyone who happens through ill fortune to be with you!

When people have gainsaid you, and I am one such, it is because we are hoping that a word to the wise will save you tribulation and/or money or even your life.

So slow down a bit. I can teach you in an afternoon the basic boathandling that is required to get you in and out of your slip. I can teach you in a weekend 80% of what you need to know about sail trim, boat stability and getting from "A" to "B" without getting lost. But what I cannot teach you, because it must be grounded in the sum total of your own "book learning" and practical experience, as well as in your particular personality and psychological traits, is how to be a good skipper. It takes a lifetime to learn that. Some never learn, and the impediment in such cases tends to be lack of humility. Or turn that argument upside down - the impediment is hubris. "People Management" is a major part of skippering.

So perhaps we can go back to where you started: a "blue water" boat for 15 grand that you can turn into the best damn boat afloat while living in 'er. A long life has taught me that "if it ain't quantified, it don't count". So perhaps you should start with the tedious exercise of constructing a budget. There are many here who will be happy to evaluate that budget for you, line by line, and pronounce on whether IN THEIR OPINION, the line extensions are reasonable.

As for your comments about a "magic" system of propulsion that raised so many hackles: Name it! And if you don't want to do that, then specify its principal parameters demonstrating in the process just exactly why you think it will meet your requirements. Remember: "If it ain't quantified, it don't count"!

Bonne chance :-)

TrentePieds

[andrei_ca]

Then that bit doesn't count, so let's stop talking about ev energy for now .

Andrei

[TrentePieds]

Fair enuff :-)! What then DO you have on your mind? Your original concern of whether a thirty is big enuff?

The answer to that, as in respect of EVERY question to do with boats, is: "That depends!" Such as: Q: "Is a thirty big enuff to have a full sized shower?" A:"that depends" Q: "Is a thirty big enuff for a young articling lawyer to live in?" A:"that depends!" Q: "Is a 9.9 Mercury O/B powerful enuff to drive a 30-footer?" A:"that depends!"

So what is it these things depend on? Well - that depends ;-0)! If you are a product of the education system of Twanna, the Good, you may remember this:

I have six honest serving men.
They taught me all I know!

Their names are "What" and "Where" and "When",
and "Who" and "Why" and "How".

Now, when you have spoken to each of those serving men in regard to every question you may wish to ask about seafaring, and received their answers, THEN you can have a conversation on even terms with the shellbacks here assembled ;-)

Hamburgking made you a fair offer. I will match it if your work takes you to the "Wet Coast". Just as long as you remember what I've said. I will even throw in some QUANTIFIED stuff about ship design and construction :-)

Cheers

TrentePieds

[andrei_ca]

Yes, it was mainly about how to decide when I choose a size if I want to make a decent liveable space (but again this varies from human to human, so it's a vague description: roughly besides what you have usually in a boat, I wanted to fit a decent freezer and or fridge to be able to make provisions for a long period of time, some photography equipment, clothing, and repair tools for the boat). Then talking appliances and how many how big, I have a bunch for making raw food (like even raw burgers or pizza) and that's quite a bit of space. Nevermind the power issue for now; I usually try to solve the puzzle, and if it doesn't work I rearrange for the new paradigm. When I was young I was fortunate (yes fortunate) to get very sick and I learned the hard way the importance of nutrition, so that's why I put such a bias on a kitchen. But then again: I can do with less and simplify things. I have built 20 lbs of fat and muscle mostly with nuts and seeds in a few months, nevermind how well the body felt, so I know downsizing/simplifying is possible and one can thrive. I see that as a compromise - not necessarily a bad one.

What I noticed was that something like a Catalina 38, has two roomy aft berths that can be converted very nicely to storage. Then I might have removed some of the benches to make room for appliances and whatnot. That was the bit on structural mods to the sole. So I was interested mainly what other models were in the same design range. Secondly, if I could go smaller.

The detail about the engine was that I might (just might, nothing sure yet) make some space. So I was talking about space and nothing more.

The blue water bit was because I inteneded long term to go to Europe, then in the Pacific (Hawaii, Indo whatnot). But then again I can start small, sell, and refit a larger boat.

Thanks guys for the help and the offers. I don't know when I'll set foot on the west coast TrentePieds, for a while I'm sticking with Toronto, I got a few things to sort out. I have an aunt in Vancouver and I actually feel tempted to move there, the cinema industry is good, also because the surf is quite good from what I hear and I can be quite a surfaholic.

Andrei

[TrentePieds]

Ah, yes - the aunt in Vancouver. Everybody's dream :-) Now, if auntie is well enuff off to rent you a cheap basement room in a heritage house in Kitsilano, or if you are using the word in the Hindi sense, I can see some advantage, given the rents in this neckathewoods. They are on a par with Twanna's, and that ain't gonna change, given the population pressures.

As for the surfing. That's on the west coast of Vancouver Island - not in the Salish Sea. The west coast of VI has been known for two hundred years as the "graveyard of ships" and is no place for a novice sailor. Be mindful of the fate of Leviathan II outta Tofino, the very best surfing water on the coast. Ferry fare twixt "The Mainland" and "The Island" is a hunnert bux return, air fare sans car rather more. So The Island is not really a feasible commuter proposition, and lovely as Victoria is, the movie industry hasn't, AFAIK, really discovered her yet.

As always, boating-wise, what you will be able to do depends crucially on the amount of bux you can spend on it. For my money, 30 feet (TrentePieds) is the "sweet spot". Small enuff not to exhaust the retirement fund, yet big enuff for man and maid to spend several weeks at a time living aboard, even several months, but I, meself, am now of an age that I would never contemplate living permanently in a boat too small to have a full size bath tub :-) Therefore we are keeping our shore-base.

As long as you are single and have only yourself to please, 30 feet is plenty and 38 is prolly too much in the sense that it is more than you need. And we are back to quantification: The increase in maintenance cost, as length is increased, is roughly the increase in length^3. So a 38 footer will cost almost exactly twice as much to keep and maintain as a 30 footer. The acquisition cost and the operating cost are trivial, really. It's the MAINTENANCE cost that causes people to walk away from their boats when they have bitten off more than they can chew. For a 30 footer, count on $10K a year including moorage. That is equivalent to the annual rent on a two bedroom apartment in the more distant of Vancouver's suburbs. Maintenance cost on a 38 footer is more than enuff to BUY a perfectly adequate condominium apartment in a not too distant suburb. And you can do that with a down-payment of less than the number of bux you have to "lock in" in your precautionary bank balance to buy a 38 footer safely and responsibly!

The 15 grand acquisition cost you spoke about is feasible, but you will not know the condition of the engine - which you MUST have in the Salish Sea for many reasons we can come back to - until you've run her for some time. If, as is not unlikely if you can buy the boat "sail away" for 15 grand, the engine is shot, the cost to replace is ANOTHER 15 grand. Cash on the barrelhead. So when you buy your fifteen grand thirty-footer, make sure you have AT LEAST 30 grand IN ADDITION in the bank: 5 for the first year's moorage, 1 for insurance, 1 for hauling, bottom-painting and zincs, 15 for a new engine, if need be, plus another 1 for a propeller to suit the new engine. And the rest of the thirty for beer to steady you nerves when reality hits :-)

Remember also - and prepare for it - that if you haven't the scratch, and the boat is in a marina, either afloat or on the hard, you will have to pay the accrued charges AND move the boat outta there. If you don't do that, the boat will be liened, confiscated and disposed of. Given that "frozen snot" boats don't die natural deaths but have to be assassinated, disposal is done by way of a chainsaw and the landfill! And you will be held responsible for the costs - roughly $5K! There is one marina around here that is known as "the yard of broken dreams" :-)!

If you are realistic, we'll all be glad to help. But if you are not, there are people on this forum who have both the honesty and the fortitude to tell you so :-)

All the best!

TP

[andrei_ca]

Nicely outlined. I see that you're aiming at something there: that maybe I should think of veering my cash first in real estate . I get it: boats are drains for cash.

In the expenese model you present do you hire someone to take care of the rapairs? If one is handy/savvy enough couldn't some of that repairs/maintainance cost be reduced (realistically speaking). I know that paint/varnish/epoxy, fabircs, ropes, etc cost and need replacement sometimes. But other than that.

Reading/seeing from other sources, blogs and vlogs, it appears that there are individuals who are capable of reducing a lot of post-purchase costs with DYI, and that when you're faced just with purchasing raw materils, it's not so bad after all (or so it appears).

Andrei

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by andrei_ca

(...)

Reading/seeing from other sources, blogs and vlogs, it appears that there are individuals who are capable of reducing a lot of post-purchase costs with DYI, and that when you're faced just with purchasing raw materils, it's not so bad after all (or so it appears).

Andrei

Andrei,

You and I are smart readers and will allow for the obvious possibility that bloggers and vloggers may be claiming things that sell. It is, you may admit, a macho thing that one can fix anything. But in fact, few of us can. Some of us are better at DiY, others suck: the point is that there is a variation and it may not transpire thru the artistic creations of people who create blogs and vlogs how much of this variation there is.

If you already have strong skills (electrics, hydraulics, mechanics, cabinetmaking, lamination, welding, diesel repair, etc) then you are a likely candidate to translate what you have into a nice sailing package that will let you go further under any budget constraints. If you do not have a lot of suchlike skills now, then you are not likely to develop them before your budget makes you change a hobby. YES, we learn how to fix anything ... mostly by breaking it up first. ;-)

You are still in this thread ;-) so we know you are not a quitter. So we know you can.

Use what people say as an input. Filter, cut and paste and reassess. The world is your oyster. Buy a boat or do not buy one, there is no try.

Cheers,
b.

[TrentePieds]

It's a little more complicated than that :-)

But, yes, shore bound RE is what will keep you cruising happily at little cost to yourself. And remember that being "poor" i.e. without cash reserves, is a very expensive way to live. If your precautionary balance is adequate, and your Balance Sheet (Statement of Financial Affairs) is reasonable, acquiring a boat and keeping her is no trick at all. There are three considerations in planning for such: Cash flow, Asset Management and Risk Management.

If you OWN a 2-bedroom condo in a suburb of Vancouver (in clear title), the rental income from it will keep you cruising comfortably in perpetuum. Mind you, being a successful "slum lord" takes a certain knack that isn't intuitive and, quaintly enuff, has much in common with being a good skipper.

Remember also that if you DON'T own the Condo, but if you play the game right, your will cover all your ownership expenses each month, including mortgage payments, and have some left over for beer money. And in 15 years, i.e. while you are still young enuff to go cruising, somebody is gonna hand you clear title/a mortgage discharge without your having put in a penny yourself because you'll have recovered the down payment already! In short, SEQUENCING is important!

Remember also that a toy windlass to fit on a 30 foot toy ship will set you back $3K. And you DON"T need a windlass in a thirty footer, tho many will tell you that you do. Mooring line is $3.50 per FOOT. Halyards likewise. There is $2,000 worth of ground tackle in TrentePieds. You can lose that easily enuff on a dark and stormy night. Your battery charger is $400 minimum and you can cook it through a moments inattention if you are doing your own electrics! New suit of sails when - not if - you need it: Call it seven grand. New standing rigging if needed: $12K. That is if you have the skills to re-rig her yourself. There is 35K of beeyootiful standing rigging on TP that the PO had to walk away from because he was EXTREMELY weak on the fundamental concepts and spent his money foolishly. I can assure you that we didn't spend ANYWHERE near that to buy her :-)

You indicated that you are hoping to "upgrade" your boat so she will be second to none. If that involves structural modifications, and joiner-work, you cannot do it satisfactorily by whittling it in your lap. You need a proper workshop - with machine tools.

Now, ALL those kinds of costs are "consumption expenditures" that take away from your ability to build an asset base. Everything that goes into the boat should, from an asset management point of view, be considered "sunk cost" (unrecoverable costs)! As someone said "The quickest way to become a millionaire is to start with five million - and buy a boat! :-)

Remember also that a forty year sailboat that is "a work in progress" has zero resale value!

Don't give up your dream, but do be sensible. Pay attention to those among us who have "seen the movie" :-)

In Twanna, with summer now approaching, hang out where the sailors are. If you are modest and willing, you will soon find a opportunity to crew in sundry boats. Learn the pros and cons of every boat you set foot in. You will find that you can buy a C&C27 - a really well-handling boat - for less than the costs of a year's moorage. You can buy a Cal20 (c/w trailer) for $2K. I have taught somewhat over a hundred greenhorns the rudiments in Cal20s. They are the cat's pajamas for learning the rudiments. And when you've finished with a Cal 20, you can afford to scrap 'er or give 'er away if you can't sell 'er.

All the best

TP

[s/v Jedi]

I have no idea if somebody mentioned this already but I recommend to watch the Sailing Uma videos.