Are YouTubers wrecking it for the rest of us?

[Mike OReilly]

Val: all you've done is pull a bunch of numbers out of the air to create a fictional scenario that somehow proves your perspective. But lets go with your story.

Give your logic, it would be easy to pay the staff $6x4+$2.35= $26.35/hr. As you state, it's only $6 difference on an apparently typical $30 bill, and according to your view, patrons already don't mind paying this.

As for your tax hiding claim, this only makes logical sense if you are saying servers are less ethical and more prone to cheat on their taxes than the average person. It's a rather damning claim, and one that demands proof. And it is not my experience, working in a similar precarious-work sector where people have to track and report cash income.

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Had dinner tonight with a successful Australian Hotel and Resteraunt owner and we were discussing the high wages there. $25-$27/hr

He says that this is one of the main reasons for the high failure rate of new resteraunts trying to develop.an established clientele .....They bleed money too quickly.

Lets see... someone opens a business knowing their costs, including labour, will be $X-much. Then they blame the "high" costs for their failure. Hmmmmm, sounds more like you were discussing poor business people.

Originally Posted by Pelagic

When Mike talks about a decent living wage, what is fair?

If I used "fair" or "decent" then I misspoke. I meant to say "living wage." And that is basically the poverty level as calculated by whatever regional or state authority does these sorts of things.

A living wage is one that, at the very least, achieves this low benchmark when applied to full-time hours. See... simple.

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Is it fair for one guy to invest his life savings into a new venture, take all the risk and be criticised for cutting down his overheads as much as possible to try and survive the initial 2-3 year startup losses?

Is it more fair for workers to work below the poverty? Yes... there are two sides.

Originally Posted by Pelagic

How many waiters would agree to work for a salary based on sales rather than a fixed hourly rate?

Having worked as a union organizer in a different precarious-work sector, I can absolutely guarantee that waiters would far prefer a decent guaranteed salary, vs living at the whims of fickle guests, or indeed owners.

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Like most things, there are two sides to consider and the waiters have the easy part.

Oh come on... You're saying it is so much easier to be working at poverty-level wages while trying to keep a home and food on the table and pay all your bills and put your kids through school and save for retirement. This compared to someone with the capital to open a large business? Seriously?

I don't in any way diminish the real risk a business person takes, but to suggest low-paid workers have it easier is insulting.

[daletournier]

Mike I'll bite, you and I are on different sides of the fence when it comes to employee /employer stuff, union man vs business owner.

I agree that many want a guaranteed wage and that's what I paid (above award) but did they guarantee me a full 38 hrs per week? My personal experience is the parento principle holds true ,20% of employees do 80% of the work.

In regards to is it ok for employees to live on the poverty line, well honestly mate not my problem, my responsibility was to provide a safe profitable work place , a decent environment for people to work BUT the most important part is profit, no profit no jobs ,its that simple. Now if employees arent happy with their pay they can get a higher paying job or do what I did start their own business, they then will make more money if they are willing to take on the risk and stress.

Employees sometimes said to me "your lucky to have this business " I would answer "you can be lucky to if you put your house on the line everyday for years, work for 10 years without a holiday and be prepared to live with the risk of being sued (I was twice). If it was easy everyone would do it, it's easier to complain than take action.

I was an employee for many years and then an employer for many years, I have the luxury of having experienced both sides, most employees know only one side . Interestingly enough the best employees I've had have gone on to own their own businesses, the worst just complain about their latest boss.

Personally mate I get over the poor me crap many (not all employees) carry on with, not happy? take responsibility, improve, move on , re educate etc, in your country and mine you have those opportunities. I failed school at 15 yet was blessed to be in born in a country that enabled you to improve your position if you made the right choices.

Btw, I have no pension and none coming, no one paided into it for me BUT as a employer I legally had to pay 100's of thousands into other people's pension funds, not sure why I was responsible for their futures but they aren't responsible for mine? I'm responsible for me, that word "responsible " should be thrown around more, its sadly lacking by the " poor me class".

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Oh come on... You're saying it is so much easier to be working at poverty-level wages while trying to keep a home and food on the table and pay all your bills and put your kids through school and save for retirement. This compared to someone with the capital to open a large business? Seriously?

I don't in any way diminish the real risk a business person takes, but to suggest low-paid workers have it easier is insulting.

Your right Mike....when you take a slice of their lifestyle at the end result, it does seem unfair.....

But how did those entrepreneurs get there, assuming no wealthy relative to bankroll them?

By working two jobs, saving every penny and taking financial risks to gain enough capital to float a loan, thus taking more risk and experiencing higher stress levels.

Meanwhile, our unambitious worker has put in a day's labor in return for a pay check.
Never really being invested in thier place of employment.

They are convinced to support an ever growing mindset of hypocritical socialist polititions, promising cheap beer and higher wages
.Over reaching labor unions flourished that eventualy made them the most well paid "unemployed" in the world, as local industries could not compete in the International markets, because of much higher labor costs and union demands.

That type of worker ignored opportunities to improve their own situation and always remained within their comfort zone dreaming about winning the lottery..

In Canada, I watched immigrants arrive from India, work their assess off in the farms of the BC delta at $2-$3/ hr, consolidating living costs and saving every penny so they could eventually buy small farms then those big farms and become wealthy.

They were looked down upon by mostly Waspish Canadians as sub-human because they did not spend their free time in beer parlors or watching hockey....and they smelled of curry ..So enough insults to go around.

I came from a mining village in Scotland, where as a coal miner's son my talents could not be nurtured in advanced schools because of the bigotory towards my social standing.

Immigrating to Canada, gave our family a wonderful opportunity to become successful. But it was not easy.

I now choose to live in the Philippines, after a lifetime at sea
I prefer here to Canada, not because it is cheap, (I can afford to live anywhere), but because I get irritated by the "entitled" mindset I now see fully entrenched in North America.

There is a raw honesty here in the PI about what it takes to become financially sound, Tough, openly corrupt but in the cities, getting better as young Filipino entrepreneurs lead the way and the counties GNP and economic indicators keep getting better.

Yet , in the provinces, there are many living beneath the poverty line. It makes me sad, but they manage their ample resources and lives like idiots while procreating like rabbits thanks to the Pope

I can only help a chosen few who show ambition and yes I do benefit from cheap labor to look after my boat and house.

Wish it could be different Mike, but the socialist call to... Spread the Wealth......If ever realized, would only bring the world down to its lowest common denominator..... as the entrepreneurs left to go sailing and make YouTube videos.[emoji57]

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Your right Mike....when you take a slice of their lifestyle at the end result, it does seem unfair.....

But how did those entrepreneurs get there, assuming no wealthy relative to bankroll them?

By working two jobs, saving every penny and taking financial risks to gain enough capital to float a loan, thus taking more risk and experiencing higher stress levels.

Meanwhile, our unambitious worker has put in a day's labor in return for a pay check.
Never really being invested in thier place of employment.

They are convinced to support an ever growing mindset of hypocritical socialist polititions, promising cheap beer and higher wages
.Over reaching labor unions flourished that eventualy made them the most well paid "unemployed" in the world, as local industries could not compete in the International markets, because of much higher labor costs and union demands.

That type of worker ignored opportunities to improve their own situation and always remained within their comfort zone dreaming about winning the lottery..

In Canada, I watched immigrants arrive from India, work their assess off in the farms of the BC delta at $2-$3/ hr, consolidating living costs and saving every penny so they could eventually buy small farms then those big farms and become wealthy.

They were looked down upon by mostly Waspish Canadians as sub-human because they did not spend their free time in beer parlors or watching hockey....and they smelled of curry ..So enough insults to go around.

I came from a mining village in Scotland, where as a coal miner's son my talents could not be nurtured in advanced schools because of the bigotory towards my social standing.

Immigrating to Canada, gave our family a wonderful opportunity to become successful. But it was not easy.

I now choose to live in the Philippines, after a lifetime at sea
I prefer here to Canada, not because it is cheap, (I can afford to live anywhere), but because I get irritated by the "entitled" mindset I now see fully entrenched in North America.

There is a raw honesty here in the PI about what it takes to become financially sound, Tough, openly corrupt but in the cities, getting better as young Filipino entrepreneurs lead the way and the counties GNP and economic indicators keep getting better.

Yet , in the provinces, there are many living beneath the poverty line. It makes me sad, but they manage their ample resources and lives like idiots while procreating like rabbits thanks to the Pope

I can only help a chosen few who show ambition and yes I do benefit from cheap labor to look after my boat and house.

Wish it could be different Mike, but the socialist call to... Spread the Wealth......If ever realized, would only bring the world down to its lowest common denominator..... as the entrepreneurs left to go sailing and make YouTube videos.[emoji57]

Ah Pelagic if we ever meet I'll be buying you a beer!, it will be out of money that I earned, it wont be inherited money, or from a pension that others pay for, it will be honest money earned simply through entrepreneurship, risk, effort, pain ,energy.....so lucky that I was born in a country that allowed me to get ahead and gave me opportunities, the same opportunities that most Australians of my generation got but many didnt act on.

[Mike OReilly]

So many straw men... so little time to try and rebut all these silly stereotypes.

As I said, I don't denigrate the entrepreneur who has a good idea and works his/her ass off to make something out of nothing. It's unfortunate others can't see the value and dignity of the worker who's efforts are what builds successful businesses.

It is useful to realize that, at least in the USA and increasingly in most western nations, the so-called "American dream" of the self-made person is getting less and less possible. Most wealthy folks start off wealthy. Just like most poor folks start off poor. The myth of the hard working entrepreneur pulling her/himself up by the bootstraps is mostly just that -- a myth.

BTW, I too have no pension, and have run my own business since 1992. I know what it takes to work hard, and also to live a precarious financial existence. But I am not blind to the fact that I owe part of my success to luck, hard work, and the success of my neighbours. No one does it alone.

Dale, we so often agree that it's hard to say this, but I fundamentally disagree with your darwinian perspective on wages and responsibilities. How can it be just to consider paying someone less than what our society considers poverty wages? This is barely a step above slavery.

And sorry, but not everyone has the option to simply leave a job to seek better employment. People have different realities and different responsibilities. Surely you can understand this.

Businesses operate under all sorts of strictures; from environmental issues to workplace safety. Businesses accommodate these demands, just like any other challenge. Why would you possibly think that demanding that people are paid a living wage would be any different?

I think I'm going to stop now. This discussion will lead this thread off the rails (if it hasn't already). Better to get back to making fun of youtubers .

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

So many straw men... so little time to try and rebut all these silly stereotypes.

As I said, I don't denigrate the entrepreneur who has a good idea and works his/her ass off to make something out of nothing. It's unfortunate others can't see the value and dignity of the worker who's efforts are what builds successful businesses.

It is useful to realize that, at least in the USA and increasingly in most western nations, the so-called "American dream" of the self-made person is getting less and less possible. Most wealthy folks start off wealthy. Just like most poor folks start off poor. The myth of the hard working entrepreneur pulling her/himself up by the bootstraps is mostly just that -- a myth.

BTW, I too have no pension, and have run my own business since 1992. I know what it takes to work hard, and also to live a precarious financial existence. But I am not blind to the fact that I owe part of my success to luck, hard work, and the success of my neighbours. No one does it alone.

Dale, we so often agree that it's hard to say this, but I fundamentally disagree with your darwinian perspective on wages and responsibilities. How can it be just to consider paying someone less than what our society considers poverty wages? This is barely a step above slavery.

And sorry, but not everyone has the option to simply leave a job to seek better employment. People have different realities and different responsibilities. Surely you can understand this.

Businesses operate under all sorts of strictures; from environmental issues to workplace safety. Businesses accommodate these demands, just like any other challenge. Why would you possibly think that demanding that people are paid a living wage would be any different?

I think I'm going to stop now. This discussion will lead this thread off the rails (if it hasn't already). Better to get back to making fun of youtubers .

Mike , we will disagree alot in this area BUT I'd buy you a beer as well because your a good bloke , a little misguided at times, but a good decent bloke[emoji1787][emoji1787]

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Mike , we will disagree alot in this area BUT I'd buy you a beer as well because your a good bloke , a little misguided at times, but a good decent bloke[emoji1787][emoji1787]

Back at you buddy . Love to share beer (or two, or three...). These conversations are much better had over a pint glass.

[sailorboy1]

Im going to have to search you tubes for resturants and tips



So decade when i get to it

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by daletournier

.....so lucky that I was born in a country that allowed me to get ahead and gave me opportunities, the same opportunities that most Australians of my generation got but many didnt act on.

2nd beer is on me Dale.
That's how I felt about immigrating to Canada at 12....... So lucky to have the opportunity.
But with the social worker Obama mindset....."you didn't build that company alone".... So give back the money and sell your Superyacht.....
One needs to ask.....what did he build?

Interesting his net worth was $800k at the start, now over $15 million.

Seems built on mostly 'Talk'

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

2nd beer is on me Dale.
That's how I felt about immigrating to Canada at 12....... So lucky to have the opportunity.
But with the social worker Obama mindset....."you didn't build that company alone".... So give back the money and sell your Superyacht.....
One needs to ask.....what did he build?

Interesting his net worth was $800k at the start, now over $15 million.

Seems built on mostly 'Talk'

Lol... $15 million? No .. thats what he just paid for his house.. Accumulated sources from 'declared' revenue which does not include his wifes money is closer to $50 million.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

.

It is useful to realize that, at least in the USA and increasingly in most western nations, the so-called "American dream" of the self-made person is getting less and less possible. Most wealthy folks start off wealthy. Just like most poor folks start off poor. The myth of the hard working entrepreneur pulling her/himself up by the bootstraps is mostly just that -- a myth.

If that's true Mike, perhaps we should ask ourselves Why?
It wasn't that way after the 1920:s recession or after the war... The US was made up.of small business success stories that employed cheap.labor.

Today, those entrepreneurial successes seem to be more in IT fields and software programing with few employees but many hours writing code.

Yes, multinational companies gulp up the innovations and set the bar high because they have developef the infrastructure to deliver.....
The workers didn't do that or envision the synergies.... The founders did.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by weavis

Lol... $15 million? No .. thats what he just paid for his house.. Accumulated sources from 'declared' revenue which does not include his wifes money is closer to $50 million.

Wow!...... "Yes 'He' Can"

BTW....thanks for recommending the "Clever Dripper" Just love it and my 1.5 cups of french roast every morning is consistently clean and never bitter.
love it!

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

If that's true Mike, perhaps we should ask ourselves Why?
It wasn't that way after the 1920:s recession or after the war... The US was made up.of small business success stories that employed cheap.labor

Agreed, we all should ask ourselves why. Part of the reason is that labour wasn't necessarily cheap. To be more accurate, the economic gains of increasing innovation and productivity were shared fairly evenly across all economic classes.

To use the old adage: the rising tide DID float all boats.

Starting somewhere in the mid-late 70s this began to change. From that point on productivity continued to rise, but the economic benefits largely flatlined for all but the upper economic classes.

https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

[daletournier]

Just to follow up on my "lucky to be born where I was" and all around me had the same opportunities that I did but not all took those opportunities. I've traveled fairly extensively in the last decade, its changed my perspective massively, most in the world truly do not have opportunities, period! Theres no poverty in Australia, I've seen poverty.

Its difficult for me listening to Australians complain about our education system, our health care system etc after being in places like Madagascar. Our reference points are very screwed up. In regards to the poverty line in Australia, does that mean only one cappuccino a day?

Btw, I was born as blue collar as it gets, paid board and lodging to my parents at 15 when I started working fulltime as a apprentice motor mechanic, then became a bouncer then went back to school while others kept breeding and drinking. I understand the suburbs.

I fully understand that parts of the world are very different from Australia but when your sipping coconut wine in an Asian dirt floor orphanage with a 20 year old that is responsible for 80 orphans yet they are all happy , they have family (orphanage) , faith and community , it brings a tear to ones eye,it makes it really hard to listen to the 1st world bitching of many that have had opportunities yet chose not to take them.

As for the employees built my business, yer right, there may be papers that explain this is so but reality is that the business when started had one employee, me, when I finishes it had 20, that business created their jobs.

Now I accept the US maybe different, I dont know.

Yep, major thread drift.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Theres no poverty in Australia, I've seen poverty.

Its difficult for me listening to Australians complain about our education system, our health care system etc after being in places like Madagascar. Our reference points are very screwed up. In regards to the poverty line in Australia, does that mean only one cappuccino a day?

Its probably based on what once was.
As a nation, has our health care, education and general cost of living gone forwards or backwards?

I know if I was starting out on apprentices wages today I wouldn't be able to rent inner city, drive a V8 F100, go out clubbing til dawn and still be able to survive, just, until next paypacket yet I did in the 80s.
First world problems for sure but I do believe in some respects, Australia is in a race to the bottom with a few other countries.

Saying that, I do know what you mean, I also have spent time in SEA and seen actual poor, strangely enough, many seem happier than those here who would be considered rich in comparison.