Are YouTubers wrecking it for the rest of us?

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Agreed, we all should ask ourselves why. Part of the reason is that labour wasn't necessarily cheap. To be more accurate, the economic gains of increasing innovation and productivity were shared fairly evenly across all economic classes.

To use the old adage: the rising tide DID float all boats.

Starting somewhere in the mid-late 70s this began to change. From that point on productivity continued to rise, but the economic benefits largely flatlined for all but the upper economic classes.

https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

That's interesting Mike and again I'm wondering if it was because large companies went multinational and started to take advantage of cheaper labor while getting tougher on local wages to try and equalise costs

A close friend founded a large trade publishing empire primarily to bring buyers and sellers together and equalise the playing field by promoting Global Trade, so that countries would trade rather than fight.

His foundation is still very active in this and has been doing it for years.
This is the latest article on labor and the new NAFTA
https://tradevistas.org/laboring-for-trade/

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Its probably based on what once was.
As a nation, has our health care, education and general cost of living gone forwards or backwards?

I know if I was starting out on apprentices wages today I wouldn't be able to rent inner city, drive a V8 F100, go out clubbing til dawn and still be able to survive, just, until next paypacket yet I did in the 80s.
First world problems for sure but I do believe in some respects, Australia is in a race to the bottom with a few other countries.

Saying that, I do know what you mean, I also have spent time in SEA and seen actual poor, strangely enough, many seem happier than those here who would be considered rich in comparison.

Unfortunately I agree with you Pelagic ,in regards to a race to the bottom, it's still not comparable in anyway to many places I've seen. A big topic that I could talk about in length, debt etc.

I did mention my generation (I'm 51), not that old, I was really talking about the many my age that didnt take the opportunities we all had but now cry victim. I lucked out, I've grown up on the tail end of a golden age.

In saying the above I've had employees complain about no money yet get cappuccinos delivered to the work place for them!

Obviously it's very hard to convey ones beliefs in a couple of paragraphs on a forum, never comes out complete , never represents accurately ones views, particularly when interpreted by someone with very different views on the subject (Mike

[daletournier]

Sorry Simi, I thought Pelagic wrote what I quoted. I get the impression we are similar ages, therefore may have experienced a similar years regarding upbringing.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

That's interesting Mike and again I'm wondering if it was because large companies went multinational and started to take advantage of cheaper labor while getting tougher on local wages to try and equalise costs

A close friend founded a large trade publishing empire primarily to bring buyers and sellers together and equalise the playing field by promoting Global Trade, so that countries would trade rather than fight.

His foundation is still very active in this and has been doing it for years.
This is the latest article on labor and the new NAFTA
https://tradevistas.org/laboring-for-trade/

Interesting discussion paper Pelagic. It's funny how so little is new. I was a young reporter, just getting started, when the Canada-US Free Trade Agreement (FTA) was being negotiated and finalized in the mid 80s. The major criticism back then (from the Canadian side) was the lower labour standards in many parts of the USA, and how this would lead to a race to the bottom on both sides of the border. The counter was always: "Oh no. That will never happen. This will drive standards, including wages, up." That didn't happen, of course. And then when the FTA was expanded to include Mexico (NAFTA), the situation got worse.

Of course NAFTA was foreshadowing of the much bigger race to the bottom that came with "globalization", which basically saw a massive shift of labour-intensive enterprises to cheap 3rd world and developing nations. First China, then other places like Korea, the Philippines, Bangladesh, India, and many other places. Global trade deals focused on the free flow of capital, and it flows to where ever labour costs are cheap, and other operating costs like pesky environmental standards are low.



Of course, globalization (of capital) is only one aspect. The other major one is automation and now AI. In fact, I suspect this is even large than globalized trade. And I also see a day in the not-so-distant-future, when AI will essentially take over almost all jobs. We are quickly racing to an economy without jobs -- at least jobs for humans. But this is a different discussion...


Regardless, I don't for one second blame the businesses and companies. As Dale so accurately put it: "the most important part [of any business] is profit." Profit comes from maximizing revenue and/or minimizing costs. So naturally capital goes to the place where costs are the smallest.

This is a major factor in the decimation of manufacturing, and other formally good-paying blue collar jobs. It's what has led to the Rust Belt in America, and similar impacts in nearly all developed countries. And you can draw a direct line to this and Brexit, Trump and the general rise of populist politics in much of the same developed world. People are getting screwed, and they know it.

Again, I don't consider corporations evil. They are simply doing as programmed. We all have created this global environment, and we are all reaping the harms, and the very real benefits, that comes with it.

***

Dale, I'm 52. I come from lower middle class stock. Have never had anything handed to me, and have certainly never even considered having a cappuccino delivered . My first paying jobs came at 12, and I've worked as hard as necessary since then.

I consider myself both smart, somewhat wise, and damn lucky. The luck part is that I was born in Canada, to parents that managed to nurture me, while struggling with double-digit mortgage interest payments, both working long, hard hours in sometimes shyte jobs. I understand struggle and sacrifice. I also understand how not everyone has the same luck, smarts and wisdom as I (and you, and Pelagic). And I also understand how the system over the last 30 years has been increasingly rigged to favour the few rich and powerful over the many of all of us.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Val: all you've done is pull a bunch of numbers out of the air to create a fictional scenario that somehow proves your perspective. But lets go with your story.

Give your logic, it would be easy to pay the staff $6x4+$2.35= $26.35/hr. As you state, it's only $6 difference on an apparently typical $30 bill, and according to your view, patrons already don't mind paying this.

As for your tax hiding claim, this only makes logical sense if you are saying servers are less ethical and more prone to cheat on their taxes than the average person. It's a rather damning claim, and one that demands proof. And it is not my experience, working in a similar precarious-work sector where people have to track and report cash income.

And your assumption that an owner would pay $25/hr for an unskilled worker is pulling numbers out of the air.

I was basing it on what non-tipped unskilled jobs pay....and you wont' find many paying $25USD/hr (but I know lots of people from 20-30yr ago making that much with tips).

So what were you basing your assumption on?

The flaw in your logic is by adding the $6 onto the menu prices when no one else does that is you look too expensive, so people go to other restaurants. It's a psychological trick, people don't calculate the tip until the end of the meal but will often check out the prices on the menu before going in.

Obviously, you've never been around the restaurant business if you think most tipped staff report every last penny. It's not that they are less ethical. It's that there is no record of their income for the IRS to verify. They can't claim zero tips but they can hide a good portion.

Doesn't work so well if you have a normal non-tip job with a pay stub that gets reported to the IRS.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It is useful to realize that, at least in the USA and increasingly in most western nations, the so-called "American dream" of the self-made person is getting less and less possible. Most wealthy folks start off wealthy. Just like most poor folks start off poor. The myth of the hard working entrepreneur pulling her/himself up by the bootstraps is mostly just that -- a myth.

No let's talk about pulling thing out of your....

Every study I've ever read suggest the overwhelming majority of millionaires...DID NOT INHERIT THEIR WEALTH.

It also supports the idea that new immigrants frequently arrive with nothing and within 20-30yrs they are millionaires...all without having the benefit of a modern education.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Agreed, we all should ask ourselves why. Part of the reason is that labour wasn't necessarily cheap. To be more accurate, the economic gains of increasing innovation and productivity were shared fairly evenly across all economic classes.

To use the old adage: the rising tide DID float all boats.

Starting somewhere in the mid-late 70s this began to change. From that point on productivity continued to rise, but the economic benefits largely flatlined for all but the upper economic classes.

https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

The flaw in using "productivity" is the vast majority of the productivity gains over the last 50-75yrs are not due to employees actually doing something more. They didn't get smarter, stronger or faster.

It's owners modernizing and automating so the overall plant productivity increased despite the workers not increasing their output.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It is useful to realize that, at least in the USA and increasingly in most western nations, the so-called "American dream" of the self-made person is getting less and less possible. Most wealthy folks start off wealthy. Just like most poor folks start off poor. The myth of the hard working entrepreneur pulling her/himself up by the bootstraps is mostly just that -- a myth.

What?!
Myth?
No. Way. Jose.
Mike, I won't throw names at you, but as Valhalla360 already stated, this is just plain wrong. The USA is adding almost 2000 millionaires a day, the vast majority of which are SELF-MADE. I won't provide a link because you can simply select your search method of choice to debunk this. The one thing that is absolutely alive and well is the American Dream.

From where does this incorrect view come? Are we becoming too modest in the states? I suppose that couldn't hurt. Still, there is ONE place in the world to go if you wish maximize your chances to become a self-made rich person, with only an idea and ambition to your name. Now, the older I get, the more I understand money isn't equal to happiness... but that is a different subject...

[Fore and Aft]

Simi60 what a thread drift, but thanks for taking me down memory lane. As a 16 year old boat building apprentice I took home $200 in the hand which paid for a room in a house near work, electricity, my share of the land line, getting blind once a week, no car but all my general living costs and things were tight but doable. If that was me today I would be taking home $400 and I am fairly sure not living the way I was back in 1991. Once I was a third year apprentice I picked up a wrecked yacht and managed to restore her and still cover my costs just. I see a third year apprentice today takes home $600 and I am fairly sure that would not cover my costs and restoring a yacht.
Mike I am not sure being a self made millionaire is a myth. I have had my accountant thump his desk in frustration when some good business opportunities have come my way and I have turned them down. I am sure I would have been wealthy if I had taken that path. But after being raised by absent parents I decided to put family first. There is no time limit on being a millionaire and there are opportunities everywhere if you look hard enough.
Cheers

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by cyan

What?!
Myth?
No. Way. Jose.
Mike, I won't throw names at you, but as Valhalla360 already stated, this is just plain wrong. The USA is adding almost 2000 millionaires a day, the vast majority of which are SELF-MADE. I won't provide a link because you can simply select your search method of choice to debunk this. The one thing that is absolutely alive and well is the American Dream.

From where does this incorrect view come? Are we becoming too modest in the states? I suppose that couldn't hurt. Still, there is ONE place in the world to go if you wish maximize your chances to become a self-made rich person, with only an idea and ambition to your name. Now, the older I get, the more I understand money isn't equal to happiness... but that is a different subject...

Owning market shares does not make one an entrepreneur. And it is the polar opposite of self-made. Not sure what cognitive universe you inhabit, but money made on advertisement (to bring it back to the youtubers) does not contribute anything to the well being of most individuals, and is indeed the source of many of the problems we face in the modern world.

Of course, had you qualified or quantified your statement with some figures describing anything about these hypothetical millionaires, you might have saved me some time. I just googled your statement "The USA is adding almost 2000 millionaires a day", and came up with these pertinent statements.


From Oct 15, 2018

"The number of millionaires is growing rapidly and is concentrated largely in the U.S. By comparison, overall, the wealth growth since the millennium – $139 trillion – appears to have be the slowest since the Great Recession."

" The number of U.S. households with a net worth of $1 million or more, not including the primary residence (NIPR), increased by 400,000 to reach a record 10.8 million in 2016."

"Credit Suisse also suggests that financial inequality in the U.S. is on the rise. Although the average wealth is $345,000 per person, the median wealth is only $30,000, marking a significant drop from last year and three times as low as other countries with similar average wealth."

(So it's not hard to imagine how some, perhaps somewhat misinformed, youngsters might feel that they're work is worth at least a little more than a tenth of their 'betters')

"In the UK, over 406,000 people now find themselves outside of the millionaire’s club, after roughly US $1.5 trillion was wiped from the country's household wealth. The decline is largely blamed on the impact of Brexit."

...Demonstrating the silliness of even using the 'millionaire argument'.

The fact remains that some people will take advantage of other people to get what they want, and other people will complain about it. I've never met anyone who truly understands the real world system and theory of money, and don't think it can be truly iunderstood, simply because of its volatility and complexity, and the role human nature plays in its function. The best that can and should be hoped for is an understanding of the principles, and to develop theories to provide the appropriate nudges in the appropriate places to guide the recalcitrant and tempestuous beast on its evolutionary path.

It is fun to talk and think about though.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

***

Dale, I'm 52. I come from lower middle class stock. Have never had anything handed to me, and have certainly never even considered having a cappuccino delivered

Ah.. there we differ. I HAVE considered it... but then walked next door to get it instead...

[MuffinMan]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Devils advocate here again Mike [emoji4]

What's quoted starts with the premise that "All people deserve to live"
...which does not consider the various regional positions on capital punishment for heinous crimes.

But back to 'Being a Waiter and are Tips an incentive'?.
Your research was admittedly about higher level employees.... which assumes a greater level of ambition and what incentives to use on them.....

Generally speaking, waiters are often an entry level job for young people and most dont take the job very seriously.
Many of us have worked in resteraunts during school years and I remember how awfully bad I was.... (Manager said " I spent half my time ****ing the dog and the other half deciding what to do with the puppies" (I remember I was bedding his twin daughters at the time and thought this quite ironic) [emoji33]

My point.... Incentives are an individual thing and $11/hr is a wonderful wage here in the Philippines where the rate is about $1.37/hr. to feed a family.

Now, while that provides great incentive to seek work overseas it also outlines that those with no ambition will always be fodder for socialist dreams.

When making a small wage, tips are an incentive

This. I see a lot about what people deserve and how they dont get paid enough. Saying people deserve this or that is a moral statement, not a reasoned argument. I've never seen anyone ask what exactly it is we are paying them for. I understand that everyone has equal value as a human being, and maybe spiritually everyone is special, but there is 7 or so billion people. Labor is one of the most plentiful resources out there and cheap. The Market Value of people is vastly different, earnings goes up when your labor is more rare and therefor more expensive. Supply and demand and all.

Being a burger flipper or waitress/er is not a job to support a family in a 1st world nation. While some people may have to do this just to get by increasing wages artificially wont help. These jobs simply arent worth the money. You have market value to demand more if your an engineer that takes years of schooling. However if I can teach a teenager to do your job in 3 on the job shifts then you dont command that much market value and I dont want to pay inflated prices because of that. I oversee a couple hundred people in a large company. Its absolutly true that 20% of my workers do 80% of the work. The other 80% dont care about their jobs and I spend my time trying to keep their mistakes from getting to the wrong ears. This is the easiest job you could have and its even pretty well above minimum wage but I still get minimum effort from most.

The world is not there to support you and no one is as invested in your life as you. No one can increase your market value but you. No matter how hard your life is only you can increase your market value. No matter how hard your life is, if you dont put in the work it wont get better in any measure. Its not that I'm not sympathic but all my and everyone elses sympathy accomplishes nothing. Hard work to gain skills, skills increase market value, more money. No one can make you learn new more valuable skills and I dont know anyone besides lefites thatll give you more money for nothing. I don't expect the owner of my company to pay me more than my skills are worth and I wouldn't want to pay workers more than their skills are worth. I often see this argument coming back to single motherhood but again, if your raising a kid alone then you probably made some bad choices. Yes there is always wild circustance that could abdicate someone of complete responsibility but mostly unplanned children you arent in a position to take care of is a prodcut of bad choices. While I am again sympathtic to the plight it doesnt change the economics of the matter. 1 kid or 7 kids later, unskilled work is worht the same amount of money. As has been said before too this habit of casting single mothers as heroines is also hamrful. While I acknoledge the job is hard it still sprung from bad choices and the welfare system in the US at least only encourages it. Why work hard to get better when I could get enough from the government by having another kid, no car and unemployed.

A big problem we are facing in the US and other 1st worlds is that tech came up too fast and the older generation cant keep up with what the market values. Tech has pushed in and brought down a huge portion of unskilled jobs and made many other low and mid level jobs outside the ability of older folks. We have an old lady here ( in her 70s) who is a supervisor. Over her life she has had many roles and eperiences which qualify her to be a supervisor. At least in the people skills department. The problem is she doesnt know how to use a computer. She cant open a tab. Doesnt know computer shortcuts. Doesnt understand how to operate the program which the whole company runs off (timesheets, billing etc...). Now, even though she is a lovly lady, she just drags down the team because everyone has to do her work since she either doesnt know how or is just too slow to be productive. Its not just that AI and automation are phasing out unskilled work, the jobs that are available take more skills to begin with now.

I dont think its true that workers build the buisness. A factory worker may put the parts together but this is a simple and repatative job that often requires minimal repetative processes. However without the owner there would be no resources, contracts, workspaces, company, jobs. Do the line workers putting together the parts set up the logisitics of recieveing materials, storage,getting them to the right places. Do the workers take the liability risk of all the employees working in the factory around tools and chemicals? Do they learn all the regulations of taxes, workers rights etc. etc. What exactly is it you are asking for more money for doing? Being a person that has bills like the rest of us? While various hired employees work on these various things it is the buisness owner that employs them all. Without him, his time, capital and risk the company wouldnt even exist for you to demand a living wage from. I am not rich now nor have I ever been. However I don't expect to die rich on the graces of someone else (unless my plan of just marrying rich pans out) and I dont expect to make more money because I "deserve a living wage". We often dont get what we deserve. And while we all may deserve a good and happy life no one desveres to take from me because I acheieved more than them.

The world is full of different places. What it takes to make a living in a 1st vs a 3rd world country are very different and comparing them is apples to oranges. I'm willing to bet that a aerospace engineer is less valued in most third world nations than a carpenter or other trades man. Yes I too have been places, seen things, the rich of the 1st worlds and the poverty of the 3rds.

I think one of the biggest mistakes that 1st worlds are making is this ignoring of the trades. I for one think a lot more young men would do better in life if we allowed them to choose a path, say JR year of high school, to either go down a college track or to take a trade apprenticship. Learning a trade and mastering it will build you a great life, often time allowing a more straightish forward path to owning a buisness and is valuable honorable work. No one ever seem to push this though. Its all about college college college for not a whole lot of gain out of college. The trend amongst employers is that information and tech is changing to fast for hard skill degree to be worth much. they would rather take a person with good traits like common sense, leadership, communication and reasoning, and teach themk to do a job. You got people coming out of college with degree in coding for languages that are 2 or 3 years out of date. Circuits are still circuits.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Simi60 what a thread drift, but thanks for taking me down memory lane. As a 16 year old boat building apprentice I took home $200 in the hand which paid for a room in a house near work, electricity, my share of the land line, getting blind once a week, no car but all my general living costs and things were tight but doable. If that was me today I would be taking home $400 and I am fairly sure not living the way I was back in 1991. Once I was a third year apprentice I picked up a wrecked yacht and managed to restore her and still cover my costs just. I see a third year apprentice today takes home $600 and I am fairly sure that would not cover my costs and restoring a yacht.
Mike I am not sure being a self made millionaire is a myth. I have had my accountant thump his desk in frustration when some good business opportunities have come my way and I have turned them down. I am sure I would have been wealthy if I had taken that path. But after being raised by absent parents I decided to put family first. There is no time limit on being a millionaire and there are opportunities everywhere if you look hard enough.
Cheers

Completely irrelevant but , 1985 first apprentice motor mechanic pay packet was $73, mum got $25 for rent,Sheeba and Bogs came and picked me up in his old EH Holden, my shout for a stick of dope and a slab of VB ( carton of Victoria Bitter), I was rich!!..lol., embarrassingly hilarious when I think back, very simple creature. Happiness was a LH Torana with triple SU carbs and yellow terror head...lol

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

....... And I also understand how the system over the last 30 years has been increasingly rigged to favour the few rich and powerful over the many of all of us.

That's the part I don't get Mike. Why do you think it was "rigged"?

Seems to me this was more of an economic evolution when world commodities (including labor), shrunk to a Global Village.

I agree with your comments about AI and the huge affect it will have on new generations of virtual citizens.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

Owning market shares does not make one an entrepreneur. And it is the polar opposite of self-made. Not sure what cognitive universe you inhabit, but money made on advertisement (to bring it back to the youtubers) does not contribute anything to the well being of most individuals, and is indeed the source of many of the problems we face in the modern world.

Being a Self-Made Millionaire in no way requires you to be an entrepreneur. It may be a common approach but in no way mandatory.

Self-Made simply means you worked, saved and invested to get to your financial position versus having it handed to you (ie: inherited wealth).

Funny thing about the whole, "you must have have inherited it" crowd...they miss that it's very rare for family wealth to last beyond the 3rd generation. Usually, the 1st Generation buckles down works hard and smart and builds up the wealth. Sometimes the 2nd Generation having seen the process, sometimes (not always) holds on or increases the wealth. By the 3rd Generation, they really have no idea where it came from and squander it.

Look at the Vanderbilts, Rockefellers, Kennedys...These were wildly, insanely wealthy at their peak...yet today, many are of the descendants are middle class and even the more wealthy among them are not even close to the levels of wealth at the families peak.