Looking at the Amels, Swans, Hallberg Rassys - long term value?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Maybe some of it does have to do with brand, because everything on our boat is way overbuilt and oversized compared to other boats of the same dimensions. There is nothing Selden on our boat, it’s Hood, Lewmar or custom. I know the rigging is custom done right at the Oyster rigging shop in Ipswich.

However, our boat is lightly used, at less than 3,000 NM per year and mostly functions as a wind assisted trawler in the Med.

The premium brands are all about the same; if anything the Oysters I have looked at might have been a bit lighter rigged than HR or Moodys.

If you don't do major replacements regularly, the boat will be gradually amortizing. Standing rigging just doesn't last much longer than 10 years; even if you don't sail that many miles you are living on borrowed time. It wears from cyclical loads put on it just sitting in the berth even when you aren't on board. If you don't do any hard ocean sailing then you might not pay much attention to your standing rigging, but if you go out to do something like that then all of a sudden you will care very much.

Whether the total cost is 10% or 2% or whatever varies a lot. Including what you paid for the boat and what condition it was in. If you paid a lot of money for boat in top condition, then it's going to be a lot less than 10% at least for the first years, and it will be less than that for an inherently expensive boat too. But for someone buying something in the €200 000 range, like the Amel the OP was talking about, then 10% is going to be pretty close in many cases.

It might be better to talk about absolute amounts of money, rather than percentages. For a boat the size of mine, and more than 10 years old, I think if you're spending less than £10 000 or £15 000 a year on average on replacing stuff, your boat will be going downhill. Maybe not noticeably, but nevertheless downhill. I spend at least that much on my boat. Electronics are £20k or so; sails were £35k (IIRC), standing rigging and mast out etc. £15k, rudder out, pilot pump, ram overhaul, rudder seals -- £5k, prop overhaul, cutless bearing (second time), shaft seal. Engine room blower. Pumps. Calorifier. Replace all underwater fittings -- £3k. Etc. etc. etc. etc. - just to name a few of the things I've done in the last 7 years. My main engine is 18 years old and 3500 hours, still going apparently strong, but it’s aging. Repower -- £20k. My teak decks are still pretty good, but they won’t last forever. I don’t even know what they will cost to replace – tens of thousands. At some point I will be overhauling furling gear. You get up to an average of £20k a year or so very easily, at this pace.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The trouble with posting lists of expenses and unrealistic timetables for replacements, is that prospective buyers then waste a lot of their time and sellers’ time by expecting the seller to cover the costs of all these future expenses.

I’ve had buyers come along and make bids on our boat with totally ridiculous discounts expected when they hear from supposed experts that items like a perfectly good Yanmar 100hp with only 2400 hours and no smoke or oil consumption needs to be replaced before they can use the boat, simply because it’s 18 years old. They want the mast and boom repainted, curtains replaced, generator replaced, rigging replaced, decks replaced, etc, etc., when there’s absolutely nothing wrong with any of the items. They’ve simply just read somewhere on line that these things should be done, then expect it.

Basically, they want the seller to buy a new boat for them for the price of a used boat, based on what they’ve read online.

Your boat has been for sale for a few years by now, hasn't it?


Buyers do expect for the amortization of unreplaced components to be reflected in the price, and I think that's reasonable. I would.



I don't think 2400 hours on the main engine is cause for any discount -- that's very minor use for a boat that age. But if you have not been systematically updating other systems, then that will definitely be reflected in the price and you shouldn't expect to get the same price others get for boats which have been better maintained.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Your boat has been for sale for a few years by now, hasn't it?


Buyers do expect for the amortization of unreplaced components to be reflected in the price, and I think that's reasonable. I would.



I don't think 2400 hours on the main engine is cause for any discount -- that's very minor use for a boat that age. But if you have not been systematically updating other systems, then that will definitely be reflected in the price and you shouldn't expect to get the same price others get for boats which have been better maintained.

I’m thinking you’ve only looked at much older Oysters regarding you rigging assessment.

The boat has been for sale for one year. Your last paragraph is a rather bold statement from someone who’s boat isn’t nearly as well equipped as ours.

Have your decks been redone? Ours have and show as new.

Our DYS sails have less than 10 days of sailing time on them... and yours?

We have an extensive fuel polishing system. And yours?

We have two Spectra watermakers. And yours?

450w Solar array. And yours?

One year old 3.3m Highfield dinghy.

Balmar spinnaker furling system. And yours?

Yanmar Engine doesn’t smoke or consume oil. And yours?

Electronics. Brand new some still in the box

I’d say our boat is pretty well maintained, and most would probably agree, so to imply that our boat is not well-maintained and up to date is complete nonsense. If you really did in fact pay the prices you claim for those items... you obviously didn’t shop around. But basically I’m finished with this arguing with you, which seems like that’s all you and some others on CF like to do these days... bait then argue. I was only trying to be helpful for the original post so that he can set some realistic goals and save some time.

[barnakiel]

You got plenty of excellent info above.


I will only add that yes you can decide, or chose wisely, on how much investment there will be. But investment will there be. This is to say some boat style and makes are more maintenance hungry than others.



You also have to think seriously about WHO will do what. If you hire people, boatyards, etc. then the cost can go thru the roof.



Realistically, over your planned span of 30 years, I would get average annual spending would need to be well over the proposed 10% (p.a.)


I worked onboard a HR 46 (built around 2000) and an Oyster 72 (built around 1995). As the 'CEO' ;-) and at times the 'cheap labour' in these projects. I had all the bills going thru my hands. In one case it was about 6mths in the other almost 6 years. We managed easily to keep it below 10% p.a. BUT these boats never left their docks. Thus the amounts covered only the dockage, annual haul-out and ongoing work (keep it clean, check everything, replace what is broken). And my captain's pay.



Now to get the same boats into a long term ocean ready and able condition would add another layer of costs. And these are actually quite high, if periodic, and cannot be done 'for less'. A new set of standing and running rigging is bought in best materials available from the best riggers. The same applies to sails for ocean going. Some items are custom. Old systems die. Some equipment needs to be tested and replaced periodically (extinguishers, liferafts, etc) etc. etc etc. $$$


Then again, do you need the boat to be ocean ready? Well, if she is spending time at the dock, she rather needs to be dock ready. Eh?


On the other hand, if your aim is to ply oceans, then 99% of all cruising is done in warm climates with absolute preference for downwind routes. No old HR, Amel or Swan are boats designed for that! Quite the opposite, light beamy Benes, Dufours, etc. are much better tools on the coconut milk run route.


So to say, many variables.

In any case do not buy anything before you are 100% you are going next year. Meanwhile, charter boats in places you think you could like to spend some time in.


Cheers,
b.

[Stu Jackson]

We searched for our boat for exactly a year 1997-1998. We saw many newer boats that had been subjected to serious abuse and neglect. Our boat was 12 when we bought and is a 1986 model. Still going strong from preventative maintenance and upgrades. Those other boats we passed on are long gone.



I don't sail across oceans, but do regular use, so the concept's identical.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I’m thinking you’ve only looked at much older Oysters regarding you rigging assessment.

The boat has been for sale for one year. Your last paragraph is a rather bold statement from someone who’s boat isn’t nearly as well equipped as ours.

Have your decks been redone? Ours have and show as new.

Our DYS sails have less than 10 days of sailing time on them... and yours?

We have an extensive fuel polishing system. And yours?

We have two Spectra watermakers. And yours?

450w Solar array. And yours?

One year old 3.3m Highfield dinghy.

Balmar spinnaker furling system. And yours?

Yanmar Engine doesn’t smoke or consume oil. And yours?

Electronics. Brand new some still in the box

I’d say our boat is pretty well maintained, and most would probably agree, so to imply that our boat is not well-maintained and up to date is complete nonsense. If you really did in fact pay the prices you claim for those items... you obviously didn’t shop around. But basically I’m finished with this arguing with you, which seems like that’s all you and some others on CF like to do these days... bait then argue. I was only trying to be helpful for the original post so that he can set some realistic goals and save some time.

I have no idea what condition your boat is in -- I haven't seen her since I considered buying her myself 10 or 11 years ago. I wasn't commenting on that or implying anything about her actual condition.


I was merely pointing out that in one post you argue that you don't really need to replace anything, and that others of us have posted unrealistic replacement schedules, and in the very same post you complain that buyers have unrealistic expectations about how often things are replaced.


No connection there? Well if you say so . . .

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I have no idea what condition your boat is in -- I haven't seen her since I considered buying her myself 10 or 11 years ago. I wasn't commenting on that or implying anything about her actual condition.


I was merely pointing out that in one post you argue that you don't really need to replace anything, and that others of us have posted unrealistic replacement schedules, and in the very same post you complain that buyers have unrealistic expectations about how often things are replaced.


No connection there? Well if you say so . . .

Very subtly you make it personal, bait then argue. Bait then argue, over and over again... it’s like a new sport here on CF which ruins many discussions. Well I’m finished with this one.

Good luck to the OP, and please feel free to contact me with a PM for advice. Personally, I think he’s on the right path. Concerned with resale value and wanting to put some sweat equity into his investment. Exactly the way we do things.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

We searched for our boat for exactly a year 1997-1998. We saw many newer boats that had been subjected to serious abuse and neglect. Our boat was 12 when we bought and is a 1986 model. Still going strong from preventative maintenance and upgrades. Those other boats we passed on are long gone.



I don't sail across oceans, but do regular use, so the concept's identical.

Same here.



When I bought this boat, I looked for more than a year, and looked at dozens of boats. I spent a lot of time and bought a lot of plane tickets. I didn't want anything more than about 10 years old, but boats 6 to 8 years old had none of them had any serious maintenance. Many of them were absolutely knackered. I had initially wanted to buy an Oyster, but I simply could not find one in my age range and in any kind of acceptable condition. I seriously considered Ken's future boat, which was an outstanding bargain, on the market for years because of ruined teak decks, but finally passed on it because the decks frightened me (Ken was braver and did the decks himself -- good on him, that was smart). Finally I had a contract on one Oyster 485, which had been owned and sailed across the Atlantic by the owner of the UK America's Cup team, but the survey results were a horror show and it just didn't make any sense to pay the price then invest another £100k or whatever it would have costed to get the boat back up to snuff. He might have owned the America's Cup team but he was no kind of seaman himself and had absolutely neglected his boat which had all kinds of serious issues. So I backed out of the contract on the basis of the survey.



When I found my Moody, I bought her really strictly because of condition. She was 8 years old at the time, and had also not had any serious replacements or maintenance, but unlike all of the Oysters and Contests and Discoveries I had looked at, she had hardly been used -- 160 hours on the generator for example. Unlike the other boats, she had been treated with love and care and was pristine in all respects. I guess the previous owner had preferred polishing to sailing her; according to her logs she had never been out of sight of land. She was expensive, and the price was non-negotiable and I paid full asking price, but it seemed like a good investment because of the condition.



I would like to say that this brilliant plan of mine worked out, but it didn't. At 8 years old systems are nevertheless starting to time out even if they were little used. Pretty soon I was replacing the calorifier, doing major work on the heating system, and before doing any serious ocean sailing I needed to have the mast out and replace the standing rigging, and then I needed sails, then total electronics replacement, and then it just went on and on from there. I don't know how much I've spent on this boat over 10 years, but it is surely more than £100k, not counting my own labor, and I did a lot of the work myself.



I am now not really convinced that the 8 to 10 year old premium boat is such a good buy. This is an awkward age still somewhat new but just on the cusp of the start of major replacements. I am now thinking somewhat older than that and after major refit or continuous intensive maintenance (like what I've given my boat) would be a better buy. Or just buy new, or build custom.



Some European buyers of mass produced boats treat them like cars -- buy new, run them hard for 5 or 6 years, don't invest in them, and then just sell them on and buy a new one. This might actually make sense, especially if you get several years use out of them without anything much breaking. The depreciation hit might be a reasonable cost compared to cost of the maintenance schedule of an older boat, and then there's the time and hassle of fixing things.


These days I am liking the idea of a new boat.

[gapvision]

Ok, so I take it that for quality boats, there is no inevitable limit to lifetime. But of course it will need ongoing and significant investment to keep her floating. Well that's already good facts to me Yes, there needs to be serious considerations about the right timing, initial and ongoing investment and this will somewhat be depending on the circumstances and use cases. I figure while floating around in the Adriatic Sea I don't necessarily need the top-notch sails I would want for ocean crossing and higher altitudes.

Thanks everybody for your excellent input, really appreciated! Expect more questions to come!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by gapvision

Ok, so I take it that for quality boats, there is no inevitable limit to lifetime. But of course it will need ongoing and significant investment to keep her floating. Well that's already good facts to me Yes, there needs to be serious considerations about the right timing, initial and ongoing investment and this will somewhat be depending on the circumstances and use cases. I figure while floating around in the Adriatic Sea I don't necessarily need the top-notch sails I would want for ocean crossing and higher altitudes.

Thanks everybody for your excellent input, really appreciated! Expect more questions to come!

Yes, I think you've got it.


Keep in mind that the hull and deck are not likely more than 10% of the total value of the boat. Yes if these are well built in the first place, they should last almost forever. GRP is especially nice because it is so inert and so essentially maintenance free, so you have the luxury to almost forget about the hull and deck, not counting antifouling and sometimes stripping off old antifoul, polishing topsides, etc., of course.


But if 10% of the boat is hull and deck, then 90% of it is other stuff, almost all of which has a limited lifetime of one period or another. So you are EITHER slowly but constantly rebuilding your boat, OR letting it go slowly downhill. This is important to keep in mind. A boat is not indeed anything like a house, which has inherent value (if it's in a decent location) and may well gain value faster than stuff wears out which needs to be replaced.



A boat is a hole in the water you throw money into. Never forget that.

[PLeffe]

I almost never post but this question got to me. I own not one but two Swans. Both older. My 1980 I have owned for 18 years. It's in So. Calif. My second Swan is a 1977 which is in Panama ready to cross the Pacific this coming March. I love both of them. Best move I ever made.

Both have screw down teak decks. No leaks ever. The decks have a fiberglass top and bottom layer with closed cell non-porous foam in-between. You can drill holes in the top all day long and water can't go through and they can't/don't get soft. I can not speak to HR decks but Swan decks are built to not leak!

My cruising boat was really down on its luck when I bought it. The price was very low but I spent three times its cost fixing it and still have more to go. If I were to do it again I would buy one that was cared for and loved. Still I love the boat I have and have put three cruising seasons in on it. I have always felt safe and secure on it.

IMHO and I have the professional qualifications to back up the opinions, on older boats motors and other such items are replaced on condition not age. Electronics change rapidly and while the older stuff will get you there the newer stuff is well worth it. You will know when to upgrade.

I could go on about the schedule you were presented but I'm stated my position based upon 18 years of Swan ownership and cruising for the past six years.

Buy quality regardless of age and you will never regret it. There is much secondary benefit to owning a really great boat. Your plan is solid and I assure you that you will be happy to spend money on a boat you really love.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Very subtly you make it personal, bait then argue. Bait then argue, over and over again... it’s like a new sport here on CF which ruins many discussions. Well I’m finished with this one.

Good luck to the OP, and please feel free to contact me with a PM for advice. Personally, I think he’s on the right path. Concerned with resale value and wanting to put some sweat equity into his investment. Exactly the way we do things.

Well, I'm sorry you took it that way. Nothing I wrote was intended as "baiting", or "personal". I do disagree sometimes as we all do, and that is not the reason to get offended. It happens to all of us that someone disagrees with this or that that we say -- it goes with having any kind of actual discussion.



We have been talking about different approaches to long term management of a boat. I've described mine -- which is to invest continually and not count on ever seeing any of that money back. Your approach is different -- you consider resale value and probably look more rationally at necessary investments than I do.



I don't insist that my approach is "right". I'm not sure yours is right either, but perhaps both approaches have a grain of truth. Both of them are likely useful to the OP.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by PLeffe

. . . My cruising boat was really down on its luck when I bought it. The price was very low but I spent three times its cost fixing it and still have more to go. If I were to do it again I would buy one that was cared for and loved. Still I love the boat I have and have put three cruising seasons in on it. I have always felt safe and secure on it.

Typical comments after experience, and word to the wise!

Originally Posted by PLeffe

Buy quality regardless of age and you will never regret it. There is much secondary benefit to owning a really great boat. Your plan is solid and I assure you that you will be happy to spend money on a boat you really love.

Words to live by!

[FranklinGray]

I hate the engine access on the new Amels. The Amel 55 I look at, the only engine access was under the cockpit...aka, you had to move the table out of the way and lift the cockpit floor up to get to the engine room. I would hate to have to do that at sea. I love many of the ideas they use in Amels but so much of it is only on Amels which I think makes getting parts difficult. Sure, Amels seem to have repair places in some places, but not in most places.

I also think Amels are over-priced.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I’m not going to diagree point by point, item by item, but there’s no way any of those repairs or replacements need to be done on an Oyster with the time table presented above. You can pretty much double the timelime for replacements except for the refrigeration and pumps as needed.

Regarding your windlass issue.. our 16 year old Lewmar Ocean 3 crapped the bed a year ago, so I replaced it with a Lewmar V5 fit fo up to an 70ft boat. The best decision, it worked fantastic yesterday when I really needed it, no more overheating or thermal shutdowns.

Oysters aren't immune to the need for maintenance. If anything, they may cost more, as some of the systems being replaced cost more if you want similar quality.

If you sail it (or even if you don't), stuff is going to break, disintegrate, or wear out. Anything that sits in salt water and the sun, wind, and rain for a year is going to need some repair, upkeep, and replacement. Several years of that adds up.

I know you know this. I'm just not sure why you'd say it's not the case, unless you're just debating the value of fixing things relative to the value of the boat.