Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-08-2021, 08:33   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Savannah GA USA
Boat: Chris White Atlantic 47
Posts: 142
Cert of Documetation - survivorship

My friend has a pretty valuable sailboat, U.S.A. federally documented in the names of himself and his girlfriend. He is listed as the managing owner on the COD. The COD expired in 2020. Now the girlfriend has died, and her only will found so far is ca 1999, long prior to the boat and the relationship. Does the COD confer rights of survivorship? Or is it tenants in common? Or is it unspecified and ownership decisions revert to the will or probate? Does the expiration of the COD have an effect on ownership?


Yes, I know my friend needs a lawyer - I've told him. He lacks the money.
Thankyou!
torrmundi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2021, 12:32   #2
Registered User
 
denverd0n's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 4,868
Images: 6
Re: Cert of Documetation - survivorship

I would suggest he contact the Coast Guard and ask them how to get the documentation solely in his name.


Sometimes the question is not if you can afford to hire a lawyer, but if you can afford to NOT hire a lawyer!
denverd0n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2021, 16:00   #3
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 22,363
Re: Cert of Documetation - survivorship

Just a WAG, but I'd think with a copy of the death certificate, the change on the documentation would be relatively easy to make happen. Maybe even do it online.

However, I will comment that we have seen, all too often, unmarried women being deported when their boyfriend dies; people who were couples for years, and he made no attempt to protect her interests, and left her an impoverished woman now of ill repute. It is a very tough position to be in, and a caution for women everywhere. If you're not married, you have no rights under the law. (In some countries, a gf cannot pick up mail for her partner, for instance.)

Since she was not but a "girl friend," I would think the Certificate of Documentation issue would be easy to solve. How he wants to handle the whole situation, of course, is up to him.

Ann
__________________
Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2021, 16:43   #4
Registered User
 
Dsanduril's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Petersburg, AK
Boat: Outremer 50S
Posts: 4,214
Re: Cert of Documetation - survivorship

The CG, by default, assumes tenancy in common unless it is told something else at the time the CoD is issued. The OP’s friend should check that first, it might require ordering an abstract of title from the CG.

If there is a right of survivorship in the (expired) CoD or if there is no right of survivorship recorded with the CG but one exists for some other reason then you file form 1340 (Bill of Sale) along with a death certificate and proof of the right of survivorship.

If there is no right of survivorship then the GF’s estate owns half (or whatever) percentage of the boat and must dispose of it as described in her will. Since it would appear that the specific property is not mentioned in the will it will fall into whatever catch-all phrases are contained in the will. Once those are settled, if the estate sells or gives the GF’s interest in the boat to the other owner you still do the same thing, notify the CG on form 1340. It’s just a matter of who signs the form and what proof must be provided.

Whichever route, there’s also the paperwork to return the vessel to documentation since the CoD expired. CG form 1258.

Quote:
Code of Federal Regulations Title 46, Part 67:
67.79 Passage of title without court action following death of owner.(a) When title to a vessel formerly owned in whole or in part by an individual now deceased passes without court action, an applicant for documentation must present:
(1) When title passes to a surviving joint tenant or tenants or to a tenant by the entirety, a copy of the death certificate, certified by an appropriate State official;

or

(2) Where the laws of cognizant jurisdiction permit passage of title without court action, evidence of compliance with applicable State law.(b) Passage of title subsequent to devolutions such as those described in paragraph (a) of this section, must be established in accordance with the remainder of this subpart.
(“court action” in the above basically refers to probate or similar proceedings to settle an estate, and without court action means when a right of survivorship or some other specific means of bypassing probate exists).
Dsanduril is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2021, 18:07   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 11
Re: Cert of Documetation - survivorship

Disanduril nailed it. Still worth running it by an attorney to look into possibilities such as common law marriage (very state specific), etc. But the USCG process is as described.
Sailbaum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2021, 18:16   #6
Deep Water Deliveries
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 27,459
Images: 2
pirate Re: Cert of Documetation - survivorship

Man oh Man.. the SSR is so much simpler..
__________________


Born to be Wild.
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2021, 18:28   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 11
Re: Cert of Documetation - survivorship

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Man oh Man.. the SSR is so much simpler..
Really? I'm always fascinated how different legal systems operate. How would the SSR deal with a deceased non-spouse/family co-owner?
Sailbaum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2021, 18:28   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: SoCal
Boat: Formosa 30 ketch
Posts: 837
Re: Cert of Documetation - survivorship

My wife and I have all our stuff (house, boat, cars) titled "OR" instead of "AND", a little risky if you don't get along, but we've managed to make it more than 40 years, so in our case I guess it's safe.
Bill Seal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2021, 18:39   #9
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 15,681
Images: 3
Re: Cert of Documetation - survivorship

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Man oh Man.. the SSR is so much simpler..


And of course the SSR is not proof of title and largely a meaningless document in practice
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2021, 18:40   #10
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 15,681
Images: 3
Re: Cert of Documetation - survivorship

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
And of course the SSR is not proof of title and largely a meaningless document in practice


Hence the SsR doesnt really encompass ownership issues.
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 07:42   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Savannah GA USA
Boat: Chris White Atlantic 47
Posts: 142
Re: Cert of Documetation - survivorship

Thankyou for all responses! This one is the one most useful to my friend.
I did check on common-law marriage, but his state does not recognize such.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
The CG, by default, assumes tenancy in common unless it is told something else at the time the CoD is issued. The OPs friend should check that first, it might require ordering an abstract of title from the CG.

If there is a right of survivorship in the (expired) CoD or if there is no right of survivorship recorded with the CG but one exists for some other reason then you file form 1340 (Bill of Sale) along with a death certificate and proof of the right of survivorship.

If there is no right of survivorship then the GFs estate owns half (or whatever) percentage of the boat and must dispose of it as described in her will. Since it would appear that the specific property is not mentioned in the will it will fall into whatever catch-all phrases are contained in the will. Once those are settled, if the estate sells or gives the GFs interest in the boat to the other owner you still do the same thing, notify the CG on form 1340. Its just a matter of who signs the form and what proof must be provided.
torrmundi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 08:29   #12
Deep Water Deliveries
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 27,459
Images: 2
pirate Re: Cert of Documetation - survivorship

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
And of course the SSR is not proof of title and largely a meaningless document in practice
Hence no legal problems..
The ownership is decided by whoevers name is on the Bill of Sale... the SSR determines who is registered/authorised to operate the vessel.
__________________


Born to be Wild.
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 08:29   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 9,732
Re: Cert of Documetation - survivorship

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Seal View Post
My wife and I have all our stuff (house, boat, cars) titled "OR" instead of "AND", a little risky if you don't get along, but we've managed to make it more than 40 years, so in our case I guess it's safe.
If you are married, you are in a much better position as there is a clear legal relationship that comes with presumptions regarding property rights. Generally with a marriage, unless there is a higher claim to the property, the law presumes the stuff is owned jointly with the survivor getting it (there are some exceptions but generally...).

The issue here is legally, she is not a spouse (unless he can claim common law marriage) and there doesn't seem to be any documents indicating he gets her half of the boat if she dies. So it likely comes down to the old will and probate to sort out.

Big question is does her estate have outstanding debts or are there other potential heirs who could lay claim to her share of the boat. If she has $50k in credit card debt and no other assets, it's entirely possible, her half of the boat could be liquidated to pay off those debts. If you can't come up with the cash, that could result in the boat being sold and the proceeds being split.

I doubt the CG will make a legal determination and if you push thru paperwork that conflicts with the final probate court ruling, you can get in trouble with the court if the court feels you are trying to pull a fast one.
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 09:46   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2008
Boat: Trident marine Voyager 30
Posts: 370
Re: Cert of Documetation - survivorship

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailbaum View Post
Really? I'm always fascinated how different legal systems operate. How would the SSR deal with a deceased non-spouse/family co-owner?
It does not deal with it. SSR proves nationality and is really only useful to hand to customs officials in countries that expects boats to be registered. Most countries in northern Europe does not require registration. If you need a title it needs to be part 1 registered but few pleasure boats are part 1 registered.
Anders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 10:45   #15
Registered User
 
StoneCrab's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 437
Images: 2
Re: Cert of Documetation - survivorship

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Hence no legal problems..
The ownership is decided by whoevers name is on the Bill of Sale... the SSR determines who is registered/authorised to operate the vessel.
Congratulations three of you know what SSR stands for. If it wouldn't be too much trouble to press a few more keys on the keyboard, please spell this out. I've never heard of SSR and it isn't common enough to be in any on-line dictionaries.

Abbreviations are not the key to good communication, but may comport a feeling of superiority. Y'all decide what you are going for here.
StoneCrab is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
To Cert or not to Cert, that is the Question hesmysnowman Training, Licensing & Certification 41 01-08-2014 16:16
Catalina 30' CE Cert 'A' storyinframes Monohull Sailboats 4 02-02-2012 19:43
New USDA Dog Health Cert Question JusDreaming Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 9 31-01-2012 08:22
Sailing cert and charter combination in Florida? Blue Skye Training, Licensing & Certification 7 01-04-2008 07:09

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:27.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.