Looking at the Amels, Swans, Hallberg Rassys - long term value?

[Spirit of Jack]

Hi there ...
Take a look a my boat for sale..
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ca-222108.html

[LaughingWarrior]

Having been looking at and dreaming about buying a boat of that type for over a year, my experience on the listing sites like YW suggests that high quality boats, well maintained and in good overall condition, seem to depreciate at the rate of inflation.

Meaning until you get to boats over 25 years old, they seem to list for similar dollars to their original selling price.

For a non-appreciating asset, that is VERY good value retention.

This of course does not calculate the value of 20+ years of maintenance and repairs... that's where the 'depreciation' money went.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by LaughingWarrior

Having been looking at and dreaming about buying a boat of that type for over a year, my experience on the listing sites like YW suggests that high quality boats, well maintained and in good overall condition, seem to depreciate at the rate of inflation.

Meaning until you get to boats over 25 years old, they seem to list for similar dollars to their original selling price.

For a non-appreciating asset, that is VERY good value retention.

This of course does not calculate the value of 20+ years of maintenance and repairs... that's where the 'depreciation' money went.

I'm not at all convinced about that. In my experience most boats 15-20 years old are worth between half and a third of their original price depending on their condition. What data did you find?

[barnakiel]

Real life example of price / value of an old vs. new same boat.


Same type, same quality.


Contessa 32 (2019) USD 250k
Contessa 32 (1979) USD 25k


This shows 90% value loss in the space of 40 years.


The loss is exponential with early years showing highest rates then slowing down in later years.


Thus very likely that in the last 10 years or so (say years 25-35) the rate approximated the recent inflation rate.


Except that an asset would need to APPRECIATE not DEPRECIATE at this rate to make claim on very good value retention.



Just thinking aloud.



???


Yes'No?Maybe?



Cheers,
b.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Real life example of price / value of an old vs. new same boat.


Same type, same quality.


Contessa 32 (2019) USD 250k
Contessa 32 (1979) USD 25k


This shows 90% value loss in the space of 40 years.

The post was considering the new price at the time, not the new price of the equivalent boat. A current 32-footer bears no relationship to a 40-year-old one, in equipment and specifications at the time it was new. And, of course, there's inflation to consider. But you have to take "actual" new price with the extras, not the list price which is a purely imaginary construct.

[Zzmeyer]

Some of the best advice I've seen on a CF thread. I am curious as to why an Oyster's Yanmar diesel, B&G or Raymarine electronics, Spectra watermakers, sails, etc last longer on an Oyster than a Beneteau. Also, if you buy an 18 year old boat for $300k, unless it is maintained in perfect condition, I have trouble seeing how you can get away with an upgrade expense of $3,000 (1%). I think a major advantage of an older high quality boat is that they are probably better equipped and maintained by a more knowledgeable owner, but that is, of course, owner specific.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by Zzmeyer

Some of the best advice I've seen on a CF thread. I am curious as to why an Oyster's Yanmar diesel, B&G or Raymarine electronics, Spectra watermakers, sails, etc last longer on an Oyster than a Beneteau. Also, if you buy an 18 year old boat for $300k, unless it is maintained in perfect condition, I have trouble seeing how you can get away with an upgrade expense of $3,000 (1%). I think a major advantage of an older high quality boat is that they are probably better equipped and maintained by a more knowledgeable owner, but that is, of course, owner specific.

They certainly can be. Although they can also be ignored by owners who think that since they spent so much on the boat to begin with they don't need to constantly maintain them.

Don't forget they grow magic stainless wire up the Orwell, which lasts twice as long as any other...

[Sail KiKa]

Very interesting reading especially for a newbie considering buying a yacht for weekend and holiday cruising.

With that said i have seen a number of e.g. 20 year old yachts that seemingly have all been very well maintained and upgraded by the owners.

The part that concerns me is that they often have around 5000 hours on the motor (around 300 hrs per year). Is that something to be concerned about that the motor is at the end of its lifespan and as mentioned in this thread potentially a cost of $30k coming soon? Would a survey highlight concerns here and would it be advisable to do additional compression tests etc?

Hope im not hijacking the thread but see this as part of buying an older yacht.

Appreciate any input many thx

MG

[jkindredpdx]

Sorry, I didn't have time to read all the replies but wanted to comment anyway. I have a 1974 HR 35 Rasmus. Bought it 10years ago for about $50k and put very little money into maintenance of the boat itself. Electronics, cushions, water heater, compass, dodger & bimini replacement have been my primary expenses. I may be looking at new sails and rigging soon. The hull, fiberglass deck, hatches, deck hardware, interior, rudder, diesel engine, etc are all solid.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Zzmeyer

Some of the best advice I've seen on a CF thread. I am curious as to why an Oyster's Yanmar diesel, B&G or Raymarine electronics, Spectra watermakers, sails, etc last longer on an Oyster than a Beneteau.

Obviously, they don't.

Originally Posted by Zzmeyer

Also, if you buy an 18 year old boat for $300k, unless it is maintained in perfect condition, I have trouble seeing how you can get away with an upgrade expense of $3,000 (1%). I think a major advantage of an older high quality boat is that they are probably better equipped and maintained by a more knowledgeable owner, but that is, of course, owner specific.

Obviously -- you are right!


However, beware that some high end boats tend to be bought new by rich guys with no mechanical aptitude who run them hard for some years without upgrading anything, and then sell them on with a whole lot of deferred maintenance. That what I discovered when I was trying to buy an Oyster 10 years ago. The Contests, HR's, and Moodys I looked at at the same time were invariably in far better condition.


But that's also a function of age. I think I was looking at boats of the wrong age. Be careful of boats that are 7 to 10 years old, I guess -- that's prime "use it hard for some years without upgrading it and then sell it on" age. It might actually be better to go with a boat which is somewhat older than that and which has already had a major refit, which resets the clock on a whole bunch of systems and components.

[David M]

Boats are massive money pits compared to any appreciation or depreciation you might get out of them, so I would not worry about current value compared to future value.

In the end, a boat is worth what someone is willing to pay for it and not what you think it is worth.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by David M

Boats are massive money pits compared to any appreciation or depreciation you might get out of them, so I would not worry about current value compared to future value.

In the end, a boat is worth what someone is willing to pay for it and not what you think it is worth.

This is exactly right, and sort of what I was trying to say above.


But this:


"Boats are massive money pits compared to any appreciation or depreciation you might get out of them"


could be edited to read:


"Boats are massive money pits. compared to any appreciation or depreciation you might get out of them"

I think it's prudent to consider every dollar, euro or pound spent on or in connection with boats to be pure consumption, and not hope too much to ever see it again.


And further put into perspective, as the man said:


I spent nearly all my money on boats, women, and booze. And the rest I just wasted.


"Women" and "booze" are definitely in the same category with "boats", and definitely not "houses", "real estate", "businesses", and "stocks". I'm not joking, BTW.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

The post was considering the new price at the time, not the new price of the equivalent boat. A current 32-footer bears no relationship to a 40-year-old one, in equipment and specifications at the time it was new. And, of course, there's inflation to consider. But you have to take "actual" new price with the extras, not the list price which is a purely imaginary construct.

Well, what I meant to show was that a quality boat will lose 90% of its value over 40 years or so.


If you take an actual price with extras then a new Contessa will even more expensive and the old-new gap even wider. Extras are where the builder makes most money.


Extras on old boats are worth nothing. I do not need that 10 y.o. AeroGen nor a 5 y.o. Raymarine plotter. I do not care they were worth $$$ when the x owner got them. I can have same tech on the boat today, at $.



And for an asset to be considered keeping value well needs to appreciate, not depreciate, at the inflation rate.


There is no need to forward-adjust ex prices while a same product is available today. You simply take the price of the new product.


A Contessa 32 is a Contessa 32 (V. Woolf) - same length,beam and displacement, same layup technology, same dacron sails, same alloy extruded mast and SS wires. Boats are not space ships, they are still built today as they were 40 years ago.



Cheers,
b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Sail KiKa

Very interesting reading especially for a newbie considering buying a yacht for weekend and holiday cruising.


(...)

Save the planet. Rent, charter, borrow.


Cheers,
b.

[malbert73]

All good points above but a higher end boat tends to be more expensive due to better joiner work below, and all around better structural build. Both of those translate into better longevity beyond just systems which are pretty equal on all boats