To Be Armed or Not?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Having lived and cruised for many years in 3rd world countries I can only second that IF you are going to make the decision to be armed, then it becomes a huge responsibility to be both mentally and physically disciplined and competent in their use.

Exactly. I meet many who are better off without their guns. They become like excited 16 yr olds yelling stuff like "I'll kill them all" etc. Many do not even realize the implications and responsibility that come with it and are of the kind that end up shot or in a foreign jail.

Where I live, many of the Ex-pats belong to a Shooting Club where both husbands and wives practice, have regular competitions with law enforcement and military neighbors to develop those pressure skills under the strictest safety standards.[/QUOTE]

Where do you live? We still hope to find a friendly and active club somewhere during our travels... and someone who can introduce us there so we can see if we can still shoot the scores we used to ;-) I think we might be better as we left all the stress in Holland when we left!

cheers,
Nick.

[Kiteboarder]

Please everybody... READ THIS...

I've been patiently reading from the sidelines. Mainly because I've been too busy to be able sit down and type.

This thread has been very constructive so far...

Please, let's not turn it in a political mess. I'm not referring to any of the previous posts. It's just a reminder to try and keep it on course.

I'll comment soon... Thanks, -D

[Kiteboarder]

I can see how, this topic can be divided in multiple fragments. Each could be dissected individually.

It's VERY complex, and the situations and possibilities can be endless. So, there is no single right answer. Only intelligent reasoning can be the right answer.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by DavidGC

1 - Why on earth would anyone want to cruise in an area where they thought a gun was necessary? Choosing where I cruise seems a wiser course.

Well, you know, that sounds very logical, but we found that it isn't that simple. The best cruising areas are mostly 3rd world countries so you are never as safe as back home behind the TV. When you have spent some years there, you realize that it isn't bad at all and you take another step. Before you know it, you've ended up somewhere you might need a gun.
Also, we started out without guns, sold them before we left. We were happy with that until we (all cruisers there) got in trouble in the aftermath of hurricane Ivan in Grenada. This lovely island suddenly turned into a warzone with gangs fighting about who gets to loot which boats. After some looting, they have guns too etc. Things change when (natural) disasters occur and this happens everywhere, think about New Orleans after the hurricane or the riots in LA etc.

4 - The best defensive weapon for an amateur is a shotgun. Firing a shotgun inside a sailboat cabin will make a very expensive mess.

What is an amateur? Not many pro's get the gold medals for shooting disciplines at the Olympics! I was a pro when I was in the army and believe me, I was nothing compared to much later as an amateur! Instruction and practice is the key. You need practice with the shotgun at short range too; it's spread is not more than an inch at that range. Also, one should not be worried about damaging the salon because that would mean you don't need to shoot. When your life is in imminent danger, you don't worry about the woodwork. I agree that a shotgun is best and a handgun maybe as backup.

6 - The likelihood of accidentally shooting some kid who only wanted to steal something is as high or higher than ever needing a weapon against an actual bodily threat. I couldn't live with that, which means I might hesitate when I actually needed it -- so what's the point?

If you make a plan like I described earlier in this thread, you separate thief from serious assaulter. When they kick in your door even with alarm system triggered and you shouting inside, you should not surrender hoping that they won't harm you. They will, they are coming for you and all you own. You can make sound plans where thieves never see your gun unless you wake up with them in your cabin. A thief will run at that moment and you should be disciplined enough to not go after him waving guns. Many people can do that and many people can't.

So David, even though I'm quoting you and arguing, I basically agree with you. If you cruise somewhere where safety isn't an issue, it's better to get rid of the guns. On the other hand, in some countries you are required to have a gun before you can come ashore (I believe Greenland is one).
Most important thing is that you should be well trained in using a gun and the self-discipline that comes with the responsibility of having a gun, before you can ever decide to have a gun aboard, no matter how unsafe it is.

ciao!
Nick.

[meyermm]

Grenada - simple pull up the anchor and leave why would any normal person want to get a gun and stay.
"Simple really, I will attempt to only go where it appears safe, maybe in convoy if I cross the Red Sea - I'm doing this for enjoyment and a slower lifestyle, more than adventure. I will get my adventure battling the elements rather than pirates, hopefully"

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by meyermm

Grenada - simple pull up the anchor and leave why would any normal person want to get a gun and stay.
"Simple really, I will attempt to only go where it appears safe, maybe in convoy if I cross the Red Sea - I'm doing this for enjoyment and a slower lifestyle, more than adventure. I will get my adventure battling the elements rather than pirates, hopefully"

Well, we had 8 other cruisers living aboard Jedi because either their boat was gone or they were scared, plus we were driving relief goods to the island's interior where we were sometimes the first outsiders to appear after the hurricane, bringing the first food and water they had in days!
Our water maker and washing machine ran from sun up to sun down, servicing many many cruisers in the bay.

In these situations we prefer to offer our help even if that means taking some risks. I agree that many hauled anchor and left but I also believe that the ones who stayed and helped got away being and feeling a better person than before. We we un-armed at that time, well, we had some mace and pepper spray which was a joke.

The Red Sea is completely different. It's piracy at the high seas there. Convoys don't work because they fall apart. My strategy there would be to do the passage in rough weather (the real pirates stay at home) and have the shotgun next to me for the idiot that still tries to get to me. This actually worked for a cruiser (I think he shot all 7 bad guys in their small boat) but he needed protection from their families until he reached Egypt.

cheers,
Nick.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Its was meant to be a funny reference to your pun (intended or not)....

But a gag that needs to be explained ain't a very good gag!

Oh well, I'll fire my writers

Ooops! Another shooting gag..........

Ahhh naaaa...I like most of the stuff you write...In my mind I just could not quite figure it out. I'm a Canuck in the U.S. trying to fathom an Auzzie...go figure...

[Tellie]

Nick, while I agree with your recommendation of the 12 guage. I'd question the .357 Next time you are at the range take off your hearing protection and fire the .357 with a three inch barrel. Hours later when your hearing slowly comes back you'll realize it's not a good choice inside a boat. The last thing you want to lose in a boarding is your hearing.

[MoonlightShadow]

A bit off topic, but a farmer guy here in UK just got three years in prison for importing a revolver into the UK. It happened 12 years ago. He wasn't a bad guy or anything. He had one when he lived in the States, which was packed with his house move back to UK.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Tellie

Nick, while I agree with your recommendation of the 12 guage. I'd question the .357 Next time you are at the range take off your hearing protection and fire the .357 with a three inch barrel. Hours later when your hearing slowly comes back you'll realize it's not a good choice inside a boat. The last thing you want to lose in a boarding is your hearing.

Telly, I agree. I only did one session with a .357 loaded with standard magnum ammo and that was with a 6" barrel and I wouldn't dare doing that without hearing protection. But, after 10 shots at 25 meters, the target's 9 and 10 were completely gone, one big hole!

But I still stand by the gun for it's other properties. I think I would have standard .38 special ammo plus some re-loaded .357 with a smaller load and a box of standard .357 magnum for shooting a croc or something. I did shoot reloaded with smaller load and wadcutter points and it almost (almost...) felt like .32 and it was silent enough. The problem is getting reloaded ammo without having the kit aboard but you could bring that and use very little of it for practice (just checking the ammo). I like revolvers and got better scores with them compared to most pistols. Only with Hammerli .22 and .32 and a SIG P-210 9mm (not SIG-Sauer) could I do better. The SIG P-210 is the best ever 9mm imo: SIG P210 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia If they look good they will cost $2000.- or more! Don't show that to the Customs official ;-)

Advantages of a revolver in a marine environment: all stainless easily available, never jams, no clips with springs and their feed-failures, 6 chambers, one safety: the trigger.

BTW, if anyone reading this, really wants to learn how to shoot a pistol: start with compressed air and a professional instructor and shoot it often at home. This is the most difficult discipline and every error you make is magnified so easily noticed. I had to correct 12 errors when I started which was at army 1st class level. When you eliminate the first one and start on the second one, you fall back to that first error again etc. The difficulty is that the pellet travels through the barrel for a much longer time.
Next step up is .22 LR and/or .32 S&W if you go for center-fire class. Hammerli or Walther is the only way. This is what I had: IMG_2780 pictures from sports photos on webshots That will set you back $2,200.- or more but you get both calibers. This is a pure sports pistol and not suitable for anything else.

cheers,
Nick.

[johnmcntsh]

I have to let you in on an experience I had as a policeman in a small city in the US.
80,000 people. We had two idiots rob a small financial company downtown. I caught up with one in an alley 1/10th of a mile away. We are in an alley with cars parked about 20 yards from each other and he turns and shoots. We exchange gunfire and take my 6 shots, ( 357 6 inch) and duck down below a car to speed load. the idiot comes up over the bumper, puts his gone to my head and did not take the time to count!!!! no bullets. needless to say another officer was running up and got him in the back but my point is
1. I always thought after the days and days of shoot no shoot training and range training I would be John Wayne, well I was more like Jerry Lewis.
Tight quarters fighting is scary, your hands are shaking like nothing else, you are backing away from the intruder and firing any which way. Any one in the military will tell you close quarters shooting is one of the scariest things you will ever do.
It will be over before you can reload or get another gun, believe me.

[amytom]

Originally Posted by johnmcntsh

I have to let you in on an experience I had as a policeman in a small city in the US.
80,000 people. We had two idiots rob a small financial company downtown. I caught up with one in an alley 1/10th of a mile away. We are in an alley with cars parked about 20 yards from each other and he turns and shoots. We exchange gunfire and take my 6 shots, ( 357 6 inch) and duck down below a car to speed load. the idiot comes up over the bumper, puts his gone to my head and did not take the time to count!!!! no bullets. needless to say another officer was running up and got him in the back but my point is
1. I always thought after the days and days of shoot no shoot training and range training I would be John Wayne, well I was more like Jerry Lewis.
Tight quarters fighting is scary, your hands are shaking like nothing else, you are backing away from the intruder and firing any which way. Any one in the military will tell you close quarters shooting is one of the scariest things you will ever do.
It will be over before you can reload or get another gun, believe me.

I'm glad you're still here to tell the story.

What you said is true, that's why I just put money down on a new weapon that has a 7+1 magazine instead of 5+1. If size wasn't an issue I would carry a PT92 with 15+1 magazine. That, some common sense, and a close relationship with God.

[Christian Van H]

Anyone who thinks they will be John Wayne should play Paint Ball once or twice. Even knowing that there is no way you can buy the farm playing paint ball, you get so excited that your aim goes out the window. Now imagine knowing that you can have your life snuffed out at any second... Johnmcntsh above chased an armed man into an alley. It is hard for most to even imagine the BALLS it takes to run TOWARDS an armed man. All the training you can get cant prepare you for what is needed in a situation like that. John Wayne was an actor and a drunk. Johnmcntsh is the real deal. I'm anti-gun, and it was a shame that anyone was shot, but I'm sure glad it wasn't John...

[meyermm]

I thought this was a cruising forum not a US, guns, how to shoot em site

[SCCatSailor]

Nick-

Your longer post was an excellent discussion and raised some very valid points. Couple of questions: When you talk about your "gun locker", what exactly is it? A separate cabinet with a simple lock? Have any authorities ever inspected it?

Also, it sounds like you declare your guns when you check into new countries? I'd be curious to hear of specific examples and specific responses. From reading some of the other threads, Noonsite and official government sites, declaring a gun can create a huge hassle and often involve storing the gun with officials (and likely never seeing it again). However, you make no mention of this. What's your experience been?

I also have a Mossberg Mariner and am trying to make the decision on whether to bring it with me when cruising.

On a separate note, I also have a Taser. Anyone have any experience with officials and Tasers?

Steve