Extended tour in the EU, Med, Schengen for Yanks?

[goboatingnow]

Or, it might be worth investing in a "full" American Express card. They always used to hold parcels and mail for cardmembers.

Given that virtually nobody takes them in Europe, anymore and few of their officies are around, I woudnt bother

Dave

[goboatingnow]

has way more coastline than France (in the Med)

Yes but most of it is not worth visting unfortunately, its islands , however absolutely

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

A marina lease might be counterproductive if you were planning to travel the coasts. But, who knows, a marina manager might be glad to receive mail for a small fee, knowing you'd have to return to collect it.

Or, it might be worth investing in a "full" American Express card. They always used to hold parcels and mail for cardmembers.

Also of note is that you'll undoubtedly have to show proof of some sort of income or support, and proof of medical/medevac insurance as well, in the minimum amount of some $40,000 from what I saw.

Well in regards to the marina lease, I was thinking along similar lines. Perhaps a marina manager might give you a lease but not require you to stay there and pay rent for the entire period of the lease as long as you came back periodically to spend a few Euros.

Saw the insurance requirement as well which takes me back to a thread on the subject. I seem to recall that one can purchase medical insurance very reasonable for coverage anywhere except the US. Would want some sort of insurance anyway as I just don't seem to be getting any younger and parts of me seem to be slowly wearing out and breaking down.

[goboatingnow]

Well in regards to the marina lease,

assuming you can find one that doesnt have a 20 year waiting list and isnt 20K a year.!!!

Dave

[hellosailor]

Dave-
"Is incorrect, The Schengen agreement contains nothing about long stay visas,"
Is not incorrect. I didn't say the Schengen agreement contained anything, I was referring to the various SITES that discuss the Schengen agreement and zone. There are repeated references to member states being allowed to issue one-year visas of various types, which will be honored in the issuing countries but NOT in other member states.
I wouldn't be surprised if folks are flying under the radar, I've crossed borders in a, ah, perhaps irregular manner myself.
Given that some member states and some individuals simply do not use exit stamps, the "simple" process of counting, enumerating, fiddling with someone's passport to determine whether they must stay or go, might very simply be something that no clerk really wants to bother with. Looks like a respectable tourist who might spend money in town? Bonjourno, welcome to whatever, have a nice stay. In which case, mums the word, why get all those folks in trouble?
OTOH it didn't take much work to email an inquiry to the Italian Foreign Ministry. They may have simply been ignoring the issue, or even setting up pitfalls, but they make no mention of any tax liabilities or drawbacks associated with the three extended visa types they offer. So I asked for specific clarification on that as well.
Since they do expect sojourners to be economically self-sufficent and to provide proof of that, I suspect they are not interested in taxing them, or having them report for jury duty.<G> These are specifically not work visas, and employment is prohibited.

[goboatingnow]

Hellosailor, this is a complex issue and not easily discussed in abstraction.

Visa permission and tax residency are two different things , you may fall into one or the other or none etc. For example keeping you boat there while also living on it, would make you a resident after 180 days, hence , the requirement for national registration, VAT and local rules etc. Its a real case by case business and one not entered into lightly

Looks like a respectable tourist who might spend money in town? Bonjourno, welcome to whatever, have a nice stay. In which case, mums the word, why get all those folks in trouble?

Doesnt really work like that , officials couldnt give a damm what you are spending or not, These are wealthy countries. and mum isnt the word.

It may work and it may not .

cheers

dave

[hellosailor]

Dave, the complexity of the issue is the reason we are NOT discussing it in abstraction but looking for specifics.

The various web sites, some from governments other not, all make it clear that there extended visas which are NOT residency visas. The Italians refer to "sojourners" specifically, a term that has fallen out of use in the US. A sojourner is, by tradition if not law, expected to be someplace for a long period without having any intention of being a "resident".

On the other hand, for some purposes my home state declares you to be a resident and citizen if you have made your home there for a mere 30 days, forget about 180.

That's why we're discussing specifics and looking for specific information, not just generalities about how complicated it is. I think we all know that any time two or three dozen nations form an organization and add more layers of bureaucracy, things are gonna get complicated. Obviously, that needle can be threaded and the goal here is to find out how.

Somewhere in Schengenland, there's a traveling salesman who's got this mastered.

[goboatingnow]

Somewhere in Schengenland, there's a traveling salesman who's got this mastered.

No not really , theres a reason that many in similar situations , just "chance their arm". There isnt a straightforward approach. The EU really needs a long term Schengen Visa system.

heres some nuggets from the US consulate to Italy

"Americans staying in Italy for more than three (3) months are considered residents. This includes Americans who will work or transact business and persons who want to simply live in Italy."

like I said it needs careful consideration, you could bring the boat in under TOR ( transfers of residence) but again you need to understand the side-effects

Remember if you take out a residency visa, you are for all intents and purposes resident there, for tax angles that may boil down to arguments about actual time on the soil etc.

Good luck with all that ,it seems like a lot to bother with for a holiday.

Dave

[hellosailor]

"Remember if you take out a residency visa, you are for all intents and purposes resident there, "

Apparently not, since a simple resident would qualify for national health, and extended visa applicants are required to bring their own health insurance with them.

Then it is possible that as a resident with no earned income (employment being prohibited) you are also exempted from concepts like income taxes.

Yes, there may be complications. Good of you to anticipate them, but let's not charge at windmills until we find out there are windmills. I'll wait to hear what the Italians have to say, it may be quit simple.

I won't go looking for a nightmare closet until they tell me there is one.

[scimitar]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

We had discussions about visa issues and regs in the Schengen area, and in order to keep down some of the complexities I am asking folks to confine this thread to the question of how a Yank can legally spend more then 90 days in the med without running afoul of anything.

Schengen Fact Sheet covers the basics, although it could be clearer and requires careful reading.

I've linked a slightly flawed map down below. It is flawed in that it shows Gibraltar as being in Schengen--but since Gib is a part of the UK, I think it is exempted, as are Ireland and the UK proper. It shows Crete, south of Greece, but Crete hasn't been accepted yet and may not be accepted if they can't iron out the old Greek-Turk issues. And for simplicity, I might call the new nations north of Greece "the former Yugoslavia" with no offense meant to any of them.

Africa, Israel, Turkey, Egypt are unlabelled but conveniently outside the Schengen area.

So...the rules for a Yank appear to be (after looking at the US DOS web site and various others) that a Yank can enter the Schengen area without a visa, and then stay for any accumulation of 90 days, not necessarily consecutive, within any period of 180 consecutive days. But once you've been in the Schengen area for those totalled 90 days, you must exit for 90 consecutive days before you can re-enter. UNLESS you have a visa.

And apparently you can receive a one year visa from any Schengen state for a nominal sum (under 100EU) which allows you to spend time in that state, not the entire Schengen zone.

So in order to take a traditional "grand tour" you've got to plan your first 180 days carefully, spending no more than 90 of them in the Schengen states, and then you have to either get OUT for 90 days, or remain in a state that has issued you the year-long visa, or some combination.

Ah, a loophole of sorts. Certainly a more flexible option that simply going away for 90 days!

So I was thinking, would it make sense to apply for a one year visa to Italy? Stop first in Iberia, skip Gib, see France, skip Italy, see Greece. Then check the calender, and spend the 90-day "exemption" period seeing the former Yugoslavia, Italy (plenty of coasts and islands) and Gibraltar, and either heading east or south as convenient to spend time in the other non-Schengen lands, as needed, to wait out the exemption period?

With a little careful planning, a coupe of longish hops, it would seem very possible to run the clock without much inconvenience at all.

And then, perhaps, duck up to Scandanavia with the option of seeing Ireland and the UK outside of Schegen limits again.

Not now, not this season, but looking ahead...It looks like a "grand tour" can still be done. Without cheating on any entry stamps.

No offence and not to be rude, but first try to learn basic geography.
With offence or no offence you are confusing people here.
Because "former Yugoslavia" is in the same time part of Shengen and not part of Shengen, that depend to where you are sailing in "former Yugoslavia". You see, Slovenia is already Shengen country, Croatia is full EU member in 5 months time, from (1/7 this year), that's mean EU law will apply.. Serbia and Macedonia do not have any sea and that mean that there, in your calculation 90, 180 days can only be Montenegro, non EU and non Shengen country.
If you go to "former Yugoslavia" you can enter Montenegro as well as Croatia or Slovenia. And someone taking your advice will, let say, sail from Italy to (former Yugoslavia) Croatia/Slovenia members of EU or to (former Yugoslavia) Montenegro not EU member. it is not the same, is it.

And for your information Yank can enter Croatia without visa.

[goboatingnow]

Apparently not, since a simple resident would qualify for national health, and extended visa applicants are required to bring their own health insurance with them.

As a EU citizen, I can tell you that the law differentiates between all sorts of people and qualification for social welfare/ healthcare etc are all very different and not at all connected necessarily with residency. Healthcare and Social welfare in the main are a function of working in the country rather then being a resident of it.

Remember , while you have no earned income, you will have a very expensive asset, ( italian wealth taxes etc).

As I say , its not something you blunder into. I wouldnt not rely on the feedback from the Consulate. You may need feedback from a residency/tax/ immigration expert to ensure you dont overlook something

best of luck

Dave

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

As a EU citizen, I can tell you that the law differentiates between all sorts of people and qualification for social welfare/ healthcare etc are all very different and not at all connected necessarily with residency. Healthcare and Social welfare in the main are a function of working in the country rather then being a resident of it.

Remember , while you have no earned income, you will have a very expensive asset, ( italian wealth taxes etc).

As I say , its not something you blunder into. I wouldnt not rely on the feedback from the Consulate. You may need feedback from a residency/tax/ immigration expert to ensure you dont overlook something

best of luck

Dave

The web site of Italian consulate does refer to a long stay visa (anything over 90 days but excluding student and other specialty categories) as an "Elective Resident" visa. The use of the word resident does give me pause for concern, especially after the brouhaha a couple of years ago about the Italian government cracking down on yacht taxes and the subsequent flight of many luxury yachts for other countries. Getting hit with VAT or some other tax would take a really big bite out of the cruising kitty.

Another problem, which may change in a couple of years, due to the current political situation I wouldn't be too interested in using north Africa as a place to reset my Schengen clock.

[hellosailor]

Eh, I knew basic geography and every flag in the UN, once upon a time. But folks keep changing their names and borders, and I've conciously given up on trying to keep track of the murdersome, ergh, squabbling tribes.

A large chunk of that terrain was Yugoslavia last time I was there, so on my outdated mental map? As I said, I'm going to call it the former Yugoslavia. That should tip you off that I am very much aware that's inaccurate, but at this time and for this purpose? It is "notSchengenland" and that's what's relevant here, until or unless I need to order visas and courtesy flags.

Yeah, a thoroughly outdated map still has north at the top. Or East, if it is old enough.

skip-
Given the age of the feud between Greece and Turkey? I wouldn't bet on Cyprus resolving or joining anything in the next fifty years. And North Africa...revolution in Libya, coupe in Egypt, "unrest" in Syria, what's upo in Lebanon this week?
Makes the thought of worrying about visas and tax codes seem like a really pleasant exercise, doesn't it?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

skip-
Given the age of the feud between Greece and Turkey? I wouldn't bet on Cyprus resolving or joining anything in the next fifty years. And North Africa...revolution in Libya, coupe in Egypt, "unrest" in Syria, what's upo in Lebanon this week?
Makes the thought of worrying about visas and tax codes seem like a really pleasant exercise, doesn't it?

There are options. Morocco, at least this week, is reasonably settled but I have been there and no interest in staying a few months while waiting out Schengen. On the other hand, I could spend a few months in Israel and have never been to Lebanon or Cyprus but they are at the far end of the Med so would have a pretty long haul to get there if running into a deadline. Not yet familiar with the total weather patterns in the Med but watching the GRIBS the last couple of months it seems to alternate between calm and gale with little in between, not the most conducive for a long sail with a deadline to sweat.

However, as you point out, relatively speaking there are a lot worse things to worry about. I do have friends that were downsized and lost house and more so whining about some minor bureaucratic mumbo jumbo for a visa does seem a bit petty. "Mommy, mommy. The mean politicians will only let me hang around the beaches in the Riviera for 90 days."

[hellosailor]

Seems like I forgot Albania, but other than that, my cronies in the CIA seem to think I'm right about where Yugoslavia used to be.

Apologies for the size of the map, the cronies sized it generously.