Apparently AIS & RADAR not Adequate Substitute for Lookout

[Exile]

Unlike many other statutory/regulatory schemes, I don't think the purpose of the Colregs is necessarily strict adherence to each of its requirements for their own sake, but to help facilitate the overall goal of avoiding collisions. (There are exceptions to this, like getting cited for no daytime anchor signal in some countries). This is why, for e.g., there is no such thing as "right of way." If vessels, whether by express agreement or default, avoid collision despite not adhering to the presumptive stand on/give way rules, then the Colregs have in fact been satisfied (even if one or more of the vessels screwed up). Contrast this with driving on the wrong side of the road, in which case you are in fact violating the applicable law whether you crash into another vehicle or not. As a consequence, I'm not sure you can really distinguish between the Vestas boat that suffered a collision due to faulty watch keeping, or Boris' incident which involved no (physical) watch keeping. IOW, does it really matter how "blatant" the disregard of the Rules is? They both resulted in collision and therefore both violated the Colregs. For all we know Boris' OSCAR system was superior to whatever was implemented on Vestas, but he slept through the alarms.

I would hate to see an event as daring, adventurous and inspiring as the Vendee get regulated out of existence because of these infrequent incidents, or due to a strict reading of the Colregs which likens them to traffic laws on land. I think Barnakiel was making the point that this may be the only logical recourse if Rule 5 is interpreted as incompatible with long-distance solo sailing in all cases, whether racing or cruising. I certainly hope this isn't the case.

[Jim Cate]

"it just not clear that they were blatantly disregarding the COLREGs,"

Hmmm.... were they not going too fast for conditions? And are you not supposed to slow down in impaired visibility (ie, dark as the inside of a cow)? If they had been slower, perhaps they could have avoided the collision.

I think they were in breach of COLREGS too, just a different rule.

Jim

[Adelie]

Yeah, I suspect they were, but the relevant jurisdiction hasn’t pursue it.

[fxykty]

And of course the fishing (?) boat they (Vestas) hit had no lights and didn’t manoeuvre (successfully) to avoid the collision - so they’re at least as liable for the collision.

I’m actually very surprised at the ill feelings of many in this thread against single handed races and racers as well as fully crewed racers. No fellow sailor camaraderie? No awe at their accomplishments? All the hate against Boris - he knew full well that he f**ked up and also knew full well that he didn’t even dent the steel hulled fishing ship that he hit, hence the supposed lack of empathy for the fishing crew.

Those are big corporate organisations that run these races so one assumes they already have legal sign-offs for safety and COLREGS compliance.

[Franziska]

I would think a speed limit during certain conditions, like night or fog, within the few sections of the race where there is likely a lot of fishing and/or traffic, could help minimising the risks of a future crash, by reducing the possible impact force.

20kn at full blast in bad visibility in an area of increased traffic like the bay of Biskay is not good. Sleeping in that condition is worse.

Alternatively have a mandatory anchor stop for everyone for a couple of hours before traversing an area like this. That way they can get some sleep and traverse the area reasonably awake.

Not a big fan of either, as this year's final sprint got me hanging at the edge of my seat, but that is still better than when we get a harsh lawsuit essentially killing solo sailing for all of us.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

1) I still insist you tell me how you see this changing - when a non-racer gets killed. 2) I will also very kindly request your explanation why it is a non-racer that counts. My take is that whoever gets killed, racer or not, it will be a very unfortunate accident. An accident. Accidents happen every day, everywhere. We cannot avoid all accidents. Trying to do this would completely deprive us of freedom, if not colpletely immobilize us. And I do not see any other way this can change - other than making solo sailing illegal and heavily penalized (e.g. 15 years in prison, etc.) But I do want to hear your replies to my two questions above. I know you have known me long enough to know I am not trolling. BTW Fatalistic - not a problem. This is exactly what many of my friends call me now and then. When they are very nice, they say I am brutally realistic. That's OK too. Very best regards, barnakiel

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

"it just not clear that they were blatantly disregarding the COLREGs,"

Hmmm.... were they not going too fast for conditions? And are you not supposed to slow down in impaired visibility (ie, dark as the inside of a cow)? If they had been slower, perhaps they could have avoided the collision.

I think they were in breach of COLREGS too, just a different rule.

Jim

What difference does impaired visibility make if you're not even awake? I think Rule 5 is the fundamental violation here.

[250224]

Originally Posted by Exile

Unlike many other statutory/regulatory schemes, I don't think the purpose of the Colregs is necessarily strict adherence to each of its requirements for their own sake, but to help facilitate the overall goal of avoiding collisions.

+1

Originally Posted by fxykty

I’m actually very surprised at the ill feelings of many in this thread against single handed races and racers as well as fully crewed racers. No fellow sailor camaraderie? No awe at their accomplishments? All the hate against Boris - he knew full well that he f**ked up and also knew full well that he didn’t even dent the steel hulled fishing ship that he hit, hence the supposed lack of empathy for the fishing crew.

+100

What came too short is the technical side: AIS, RADAR, <SENSORS> --> Sleep alarm. When Alex Thomson slept too long I think he used an electric wristband afterwards. The technical side is also the only realistic way for improvements. And potentially much more able than human outlook can ever be.

Or, ..., referring the great german solution provider track record (migration, covid..), it could be decreed to shut down fishery every 4 years such that races can happen and fish stock improve, it's no secret that severely overfishing takes place atm.. ><(((°>

[Lodesman]

Why do people keep assuming the fishing vessel was steel? I recall the fishing vessel run down by Condor a few years back was anything but.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Why do people keep assuming the fishing vessel was steel? I recall the fishing vessel run down by Condor a few years back was anything but.

Because that's what large Spanish fishing boats are made of.. others made of GRP or wood tend to be under 12 metres.. take a sail along Spain and Portugal and see for yourself.
Also.. just scratched paint and as Boris described it.. "a wall alongside the boat".

[flee27]

Question. Not defending COLREGS or those the adhere to them. They have been around a long time. It might be time for an update to deal some situations that arise in our current times that probably where not thought about when written. Things like soiling ocean racers that are capable of sustained speeds of 25-30+ knots. Autonomous vehicles would be another. Dynamics change and rules/regulations sometimes need to be revisited to apply more relevantly to the times.

And I don't think condemning Boris so quickly is OK. We are assuming we know his thoughts. If he didn't have his accident this thread wouldn't be happening. Protesting him and therefore the race (and all single handed activities) because of this one accident is a little hypocritical IMO.

Foster

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Because that's what large Spanish fishing boats are made of.. others made of GRP or wood tend to be under 12 metres.. take a sail along Spain and Portugal and see for yourself.
Also.. just scratched paint and as Boris described it.. "a wall alongside the boat".

They do make larger trawlers from FRP. Do we actually know the size or name of the vessel involved?

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

They do make larger trawlers from FRP. Do we actually know the size or name of the vessel involved?

True, but if this report is right it looks pretty steely to me: https://youtu.be/hp5zoAifqWY What adds another weird twist though is that according to this report the trawler thought Boris approching at high speed was a smuggler of some sort. Bizarre. Btw.: Here is Boris initial video once more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv6W-wcO4sI

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think Rule 5 is the fundamental violation here.

Agreed, albeit with a certain amount of ambiguity within the wording of Rule 5 itself which may allow for the role of electronics in satisfying the primary "sight and hearing" clause. By custom and practice, this is (rightly) assumed to mean a physical lookout, but there's nothing in the Rules that expressly prohibits longer distance solo sailing which obviously requires sleep. Or for that matter conditions severe enough in most sailboats' open cockpits that collision avoidance may actually be better achieved by being below monitoring radar & AIS. In contrast, sleep deprivation may not necessarily be an appropriate alternative for meeting the "full appraisal" requirement if electronics could be an adequate substitute when a physical lookout is not realistic or practicable.

Not sure if any of the commentary to the Rules address this, or if a court has rendered a judgment on it, but I suppose it's only a matter of time before this precise issue is litigated.

Rule 5 - Lookout
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

[250224]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Do we actually know the size or name of the vessel involved?

of course. Hermanos Busto

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Franziska

True, but if this report is right it looks pretty steely to me:

My German's not very gut. I assume the red vessel was the fishing vessel at the centre of this. Pretty clean, and no rust streaks. Maybe they're the smugglers It might be aluminum. Not as big as some seem to be trying to paint it - in the 60-70 ft (18-20m) range. Regardless it's a ridiculous statement - "there was little damage so no worries." In this case yes, but what about the next incident? Or the one after that? Solo RTW races are stunts, simple as that. What do they offer over crewed races? They're an exercise in ego-stroking and nothing more.