Apparently AIS & RADAR not Adequate Substitute for Lookout

[Pandor]

https://www.explica.co/some-hakes-in...d-tour-sports/

Boris comes off as an absolute tool. I really can't understand anyone defending his actions if the report is true. Truthfully I think this deserves a DSQ and perhaps even criminal prosecution. The link above provides the fisherman's side of events:

His boat, longline fishing 80 miles off the French coast, with thousands of hooks thrown into the sea, saw a sailboat approach its stern at full speed. “He did not have time for anything. It was half past eight on Wednesday night, we had all the position lights on. It was an approach ”, remembers the Basque skipper, 55 years old; “It gave us an impression of shock.”

Perplexed, Zaldunbide and the other fishermen accompanying him on the boat approached his port side, which had stopped the sailboat in its tracks. “The tails of the candles had been caught with our lights,” he explains. After the blow, a person came out of the cabin from the other boat, tore off the lights, got rid of the hitch and continued on its course.

“We were surprised. I called the owner. I thought it was a smuggler who didn’t want us to get near. For us it was sheet metal and paint, but I wanted to see if the other boat had a leak. I called him several times on channel 16, the emergency, but he did not answer, “says Zaldunbide. The owner, Aitor Badiola, contacted Salvamento Marino, in Madrid, and told those responsible what had happened. Meanwhile, the boss told some friends over the phone. One of them gave him the key: “He told me that a regatta was taking place.”

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Pandor

https://www.explica.co/some-hakes-in...d-tour-sports/

Boris comes off as an absolute tool. I really can't understand anyone defending his actions if the report is true. Truthfully I think this deserves a DSQ and perhaps even criminal prosecution. The link above provides the fisherman's side of events:

Thanks for posting the link. Although there seems to be some things lost in translation, it makes many parts of the story very clear. It's always good to have both sides of an argument.

[250224]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Solo RTW races are stunts, simple as that. What do they offer over crewed races? They're an exercise in ego-stroking and nothing more.

Forget it. Think of the crewed Vestas accident! Even your shiny US navy vessels, sadly, have accidents, fully crewed. There are questions with this crash of course, but not to be handled uninformedly and with insults.

A pro-tip: don't take everything what you read for a fact. Afaik Boris at first said that there was no AIS, but retracted later. And you know, there are fisher boats who switch off AIS. I think you (and some others) lack emotional understanding for the situation.

[Franziska]

They are much more exiting than the boring crewed events like the Volvo in my view.

I'm not interested in the Volvo race at all. Americas is reasonably exciting.

Further the achievement of these sailor is exponentially higher than that of any of the crewed events.
Mentally as well as physically.

Further there are a lot of people who do single hand in a save way (I do this occasionally myself and would never want to miss this).

I'm not saying that the current way how the Vendee is run is perfect and I am critical of the way they cross high risk areas like the bay of Biskay. Still I am very far from condemning solo sailing flat out.
One of the few things left these day where you can enjoy pure liberty & freedom.

Regarding steel vs. aluminum makes really no difference. Let's just call it metal.

Originally Posted by Lodesman

My German's not very gut. I assume the red vessel was the fishing vessel at the centre of this. Pretty clean, and no rust streaks. Maybe they're the smugglers It might be aluminum. Not as big as some seem to be trying to paint it - in the 60-70 ft (18-20m) range. Regardless it's a ridiculous statement - "there was little damage so no worries." In this case yes, but what about the next incident? Or the one after that? Solo RTW races are stunts, simple as that. What do they offer over crewed races? They're an exercise in ego-stroking and nothing more.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by blu3534

Forget it. Think of the crewed Vestas accident! Even your shiny US navy vessels, sadly, have accidents, fully crewed. There are questions with this crash of course, but not to be handled uninformedly and with insults.

First of all, they're not my shiny USN vessels, and secondly no-one has intimated that crewed vessels don't also have accidents. That's like saying "sober people crash cars, so why get upset at drunk drivers?"

Originally Posted by blu3534

A pro-tip: don't take everything what you read for a fact. Afaik Boris at first said that there was no AIS, but retracted later. And you know, there are fisher boats who switch off AIS. I think you (and some others) lack emotional understanding for the situation.

I'm not even sure what that all means.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Franziska

They are much more exiting than the boring crewed events like the Volvo in my view.

How, to the virtual spectator, do these races truly differ?
Further the achievement of these sailor is exponentially higher than that of any of the crewed events.
Mentally as well as physically.

Well I give you that, but that raises another question. If this is then a matter of human endurance, then it shouldn't be about getting done fastest, because obviously then you've endured less than the guy/girl behind you - it should be "most distance covered" in a defined period, say 90 days or something. Like I said before, the concept doesn't make sense, other than purely in egotism.

Further there are a lot of people who do single hand in a save way (I do this occasionally myself and would never want to miss this).

I understand that it is possible to single-hand in a safe way. Certainly it becomes less safe with greater duration. I don't agree with sailing without a watch, but I accept there are methods to make that safer - ie. short sleeps and a timer.

Regarding steel vs. aluminum makes really no difference. Let's just call it metal.

This is kind of a moot point, but for interest sake, could you tell that these are FRP? (made in the Med btw):

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by blu3534

Even your shiny US navy vessels, sadly, have accidents, fully crewed.

I want to circle back to this comment. Here's a perfect example of why you shouldn't have high-powered vessels screaming around at high speed, with a sleep-deprived crew, counting on fallible technology to keep them out of trouble. Sound familiar?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

This is kind of a moot point, but for interest sake, could you tell that these are FRP? (made in the Med btw):

What does it matter if those two boats look metal and are FRP. It is an established fact that the fishing boat that Boris collided with is steel.

And while Boris was the give way boat, that doesn’t absolve the fishing boat from keeping clear. In fact, they watched him approach - why didn’t they get out of the way when they saw that the approaching sail boat was heading right for them?

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by fxykty

What does it matter if those two boats look metal and are FRP. It is an established fact that the fishing boat that Boris collided with is steel.

And while Boris was the give way boat, that doesn’t absolve the fishing boat from keeping clear. In fact, they watched him approach - why didn’t they get out of the way when they saw that the approaching sail boat was heading right for them?

And afterwards he left the scene without talking to the vessel he collided with. At least according to the fishermen.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by fxykty

And while Boris was the give way boat, that doesn’t absolve the fishing boat from keeping clear. In fact, they watched him approach - why didn’t they get out of the way when they saw that the approaching sail boat was heading right for them?

It didn't sound from the article that the fishing boat had much (if any) time.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Exile

It didn't sound from the article that the fishing boat had much (if any) time.

They were not keeping an adequate lookout or they would have seen him sooner.

There’s blame for both sides here.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Adelie

They were not keeping an adequate lookout or they would have seen him sooner.

There’s blame for both sides here.

Yes, that's a given. My comment was more about why the fishing boat didn't/couldn't get out of the way at the time they did actually see him. Nighttime, high speed, approaching at an angle, etc. Speculation I know, but maybe reasonable given the few facts we know thus far.

[Franziska]

No, but I can tell you that the one in the YouTube video which is claimed to be involved into the collision with Boris is metal.
Clearly visible if you look up closely.

The point is not to see on any boat from first glance what material they are made of, but to see it in pictures of that very boat.

Regarding your point about the achievement of these solo sailors vs. crewed events.

In my eyes is a sailor which is capable to safely steer a boat of roughly similar proportions to a Volvo Ocean boat solo through the most treacherous waters on the planet far more capable than a sailor of a crewed event.
The more if it's without any physical outside assistance, nonstop and even more if it's in a race.

These people have to be able to fix just about anything you can throw at them in about any bodily or mental stage they are.
They scale 30m high masts themselves, the repair hydraulic pumps, laminate carbon structures or fix a hydrogenerator standing on a small ledge on the transom while the boat blast with 25kn through the vast expanses of the Southern Ocean.
They handle huge sails by themselves and take an awful amount of decisions all the time.

To me that is a very very very impressive achievement.

Compared to the the Volvo Ocean or similar races are not a walk in the park, but not far from it.
They take shifts, have specialists for the jobs on board and they have big repair & shore teams at every port along the way.
Honestly, I am a lot less impressed by that.

Apart from that, racing is about speed. Always has been. Why? Because it adds another level of excitement.
Further, almost every serious sport event these days is a media event too. Sports is entertainment. As such its not the purely selfish thing you describe.
It brings a lot of joy and amusement to people who are for a number of reasons not able themselves to compete at that level.
It brings also motivation to people and lifts their spirits.
I for one took great pleasure in this long stupid Covid winter to watch a few of their videos everyday and see them doing what I personally love dearly but could not do at all last year. Going sailing.
They do it in a completely different way than us cruisers, but, they uplifted my spirits regularly.
Plus you can actually learn a lot from them, be it following their weather tactics, seeing how they handle the boats and so on.

I dip my head towards these sailors and their remarkable achievements.

Originally Posted by Lodesman

This is kind of a moot point, but for interest sake, could you tell that these are FRP? (made in the Med btw):

[250224]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

and secondly no-one has intimated that crewed vessels don't also have accidents.

that sounds good, if solo is not singled out in extremis we have almost an understanding . Crew has advantages but as my link further below shows can also introduce complications: communication issues, hierarchy issues, training issues.

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I want to circle back to this comment. Here's a perfect example of why you shouldn't have high-powered vessels screaming around at high speed, with a sleep-deprived crew, counting on fallible technology to keep them out of trouble. Sound familiar?

Now is my turn to be ... Do you compare the US navy vessel with Vendee racers? I was thinking of the USS Fitzgerald, here a looong but excellent report of this devastating incident: https://features.propublica.org/navy...crash-crystal/. I read it before and now from a quick browse: "sailors on the $1.8 billion destroyer are young, tired and poorly trained" .. "Its radars were in questionable shape, and it’s not clear the crew knew how to operate them." .. "technicians had covered a button to tune the radar with masking tape because it was broken".

The VG yachtswomen and yachtsmen are highly professional, certainly tired but (when alarmed/awake) will react in a split second, I'm sure about that. And radars and other devices should be top quality and well tested. But something failed obviously, I'm curious what happened. While technology is fallible, it really cannot be so difficult to reliably spot another boat and notify the sailor?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Exile

Agreed, albeit with a certain amount of ambiguity within the wording of Rule 5 itself which may allow for the role of electronics in satisfying the primary "sight and hearing" clause. By custom and practice, this is (rightly) assumed to mean a physical lookout, but there's nothing in the Rules that expressly prohibits longer distance solo sailing which obviously requires sleep. Or for that matter conditions severe enough in most sailboats' open cockpits that collision avoidance may actually be better achieved by being below monitoring radar & AIS. In contrast, sleep deprivation may not necessarily be an appropriate alternative for meeting the "full appraisal" requirement if electronics could be an adequate substitute when a physical lookout is not realistic or practicable.

Not sure if any of the commentary to the Rules address this, or if a court has rendered a judgment on it, but I suppose it's only a matter of time before this precise issue is litigated.

Rule 5 - Lookout
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

It's been litigated. The cases say, and the USCG official position is: Solo sailing is not prohibited per se, but being solo does not relieve you of the obligation of "maintaining a proper look-out by sight and by hearing at all times." It means that there is no way to comply with the Rules and sail further than you can stay awake.