The Yard Guys

[neilpride]

Paulo i sugest you to read Minaret refit topic, he own a Nauticat, the cabin structure is made of thick fiberglass , no Wood, Wood is inside acting like a liner, and the glass is tempered thick glass, dont let me start with Windows and hatches in mass market production boats ...

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

OK guys, this is getting pretty silly and trivial. Let's step away from arguing about whether the class A rating, for a NEW boat is meaningful or hype.

Instead, let us consider whether the lightly built new boat, which is highly dependent upon the glued-in liner/grid for structural integrity, will be fit for purpose after five or ten years of service? The brass through hulls can be renewed, other systems can be inspected and updated (just like in the older designs) but what about the hull?

I think that it is arguable that the A rating will still be in effect (not aware of a time limit or a need for re-certification) at such time. I wonder if the boat will still be as sound as when built. Our resident experts have mentioned that inspection of the adhesive joints in such boats is impossible. How will one determine if the boat is sound? I'm not expressing an opinion here, but suspect that the older, more heavily built boat will survive the years better. Several of you have mentioned that there is an implicit "use-by" date associated with modern construction, yet there is no mention of this in the A classification AFAIK.

Oh... for Smack: It was not me who was saying watermakers and gen sets are necessary for long passages. None of my passage making boats have had either.

Jim

Has I said you have to see the all picture regarding RCD and that's an European picture. Here the boats lose the certification after 7 years after being sold (new boats)and have to be inspected/surveyed by a certified body. After that I believe the inspection is each 4 years. Without a boat with a valid certification you cannot sail.

So, if the bulkheads are coming lose and unglued you have to make a major repair but I had never heard about a boat being "grounded" for that.

Beneteau and Jeanneau are using bonding agents for 20 years now so the problem did not yet happened...and I don't say it will not happen in the future, but as I said the Opera house in Sydney is structurally glued, it is 40 years old and no problem with the bonding agents, so I hope the glue stick together at least for 40 years...and if so, I believe the useful live of a modern boat will not be more than that. Obsolescence of design and many systems will make it a total loss.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Polux

Do you really think that these two types of boats are comparable in what regards safety and seaworthiness? Huge "windows", huge lateral door on a fiberglass and wood light structure versus smaller "windows" on a steel structure with a steel door on the cockpit? Came on

Um, those are laminated glass, same as bulletproof windows, with aluminum storm shutters. And the pilot house superstructure is built substantially stouter than your boat, I assure you. Pics to follow. My pilothouse door was easy to make pretty waterproof with some simple weatherstrip/rubber seal. I'm sure if fully immersed there'd be some ingress, but you'd have to lay her on her side for at least 30 minutes to get a measurable amount. Once again, you speak of things of which you know nothing.

BTW, none of the boats pictured are an N52. Different designer and everything, N52 is an S&S design.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Again, I personally think that depends on the yard guy. There are very good ones and not very good ones.

Again, you are stating the obvious.

For example, you mention "variables". One yard guy may be very experienced in fiberglass work - having worked on many older boats for many years. That work will likely lead him to very strong opinions based on how he does his own job. But that has little to do with the larger picture beyond his own job.

In other words, he may be the best glass tabbing dude in the world. And that tabbing experience will inform his opinions about "proper glass tabbing". But how does that translate to new adhesive techniques, carbon laminates, whatever? Usually, it doesn't very well unless he's all over the newer technologies on a continual basis. Many times it becomes a situation where if it's not done the way he's always done it - it's no good. That's kind of human nature.

I believe you are overstating how complex you think the "new technologies" really are. In fact, Neil didn't even need to read the thesis you touted to understand that the adhesion properties of the Plexus bond on the Bene he worked on likely led to the failure of the surrounding laminate. It obviously needed either a stronger laminate, tabbing, or a thicker/wider layer of Plexus. Given the alternatives, Neil went with probably the most sensible & affordable choice, namely reinforcing the surrounding laminate.

So, as shown with my own first-hand experience with bad yard guys, you just have to weigh their opinions against others out there that might be saying something completely different. For example, I wish I had taken my electrical work to Neil - not the bonehead that left that rat's nest in my bilge after assuring me he knew what he was doing.

You need absolutely no experience to research and weigh various opinions.

Ahhh . . . but here is where you have deceived yourself. Just like trying to sort through the bluewater vs. modern boat debate, figuring out which boat tech's opinions are sound can only come with experience. Sure, you can always "Google it," but how will you really know until you've seen jobs that are properly done & those that are not? That's why I previously pointed out some value in your messed up electrical job. Everyone makes mistakes getting jobs done in the beginning, just like everyone probably buys unnecessary or substandard gear at first. I mean how much of that vast array of cleaning products on the shelf at West Marine really works as advertised? Are you saying you've always hit the mark buying the right stuff, right away, the very first time?

Which reminds me, where are all these other opinions you keep talking about when it comes to the build quality of modern mass-produced boats?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by minaret

...

BTW, none of the boats pictured are an N52. Different designer and everything, N52 is an S&S design.

Some confusion here. What was being discussed was a Nautica 38 motorsailor. The pictures are from one.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Paulo i sugest you to read Minaret refit topic, he own a Nauticat, the cabin structure is made of thick fiberglass , no Wood, Wood is inside acting like a liner, and the glass is tempered thick glass, dont let me start with Windows and hatches in mass market production boats ...

Minaret's boat is very different from the Nauticat 38 and the "windows" are proportionally smaller. The Nauticat 38 belongs to the motorsailers line, really old designs with an almost full keel and huge superstructures. The design is so old that Minaret's boat, not being on the Nauticat catalog, has a much more modern (and better) design, specially in what regards the hull and keel design.



Nauticat are very well built but that has nothing to do with being a bad or a good design. Only the more recent boats on Nauticat catalog can be considered modern designed, in a sense that the design is actual and more effective in what regards sailing. Particularly the 385 is a good design and a good sailing boat even if a bit fat for my taste The Nauticat 385 is an incomparably better offshore sailing boat if compared with the Nauticat 38 (still on Nauticat catalog also).

[Polux]

Originally Posted by minaret

Um, those are laminated glass, same as bulletproof windows, with aluminum storm shutters. ...Once again, you speak of things of which you know nothing.
..

and here you are again assuming things you don't know regarding what I know or not. I assure you that there is in Europe much more Nauticats than on the states and that I have been inside and visited several models. They are mostly used to live aboard (the motorsailors) and sail very little. If the Nauticat 38 could pass with some small modifications the certificate for A class they surely would have made those modifications since as it is the boat cannot be sailed by most Europeans offshore.

Or maybe as I have said, the ones that buy that type of boat don't want to go offshore, but just a boat with a big interior to live aboard.

Anyway, those big windows and the lateral door don't inspire me any confidence.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Polux

and here you are again assuming things you don't know regarding what I know or not. I assure you that there is in Europe much more Nauticats than on the states and that I have been inside and visited several models. They are mostly used to live aboard (the motorsailors) and sail very little. If the Nauticat 38 could pass with some small modifications the certificate for A class they surely would have made those modifications since as it is the boat cannot be sailed by most Europeans offshore.

Or maybe as I have said, the ones that buy that type of boat don't want to go offshore, but just a boat with a big interior to live aboard.

Anyway, those big windows and the lateral door don't inspire me any confidence.

Nor does an A8 rating for that Bene 38, no matter how much support you seem to give it. It is a manufacturers rating, and you even acknowledged that in the real world, you would not be doing long, extensive ocean passages in F8 conditions with 8 people aboard.

In fact, the whole new way of building does not inspire confidence. Perhaps that is why so many older boats with great heritage are maintained at a high level, or people buy them and spend funds to bring them back up to standards.

In the end, a person will end up with a well founded boat, that has deservedly earned its stripes, as opposed to buying a questionable new one.

And of course there are well built new ones which are honest about their intended use. Some are well qualified to do those long off shore passages. Boats like the Bene 38 do not fit into that category.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Polux

and here you are again assuming things you don't know regarding what I know or not. I assure you that there is in Europe much more Nauticats than on the states and that I have been inside and visited several models. They are mostly used to live aboard (the motorsailors) and sail very little. If the Nauticat 38 could pass with some small modifications the certificate for A class they surely would have made those modifications since as it is the boat cannot be sailed by most Europeans offshore.

Or maybe as I have said, the ones that buy that type of boat don't want to go offshore, but just a boat with a big interior to live aboard.

Anyway, those big windows and the lateral door don't inspire me any confidence.

Ever been offshore in ugly weather in a big fishing boat? I have. Guess what, they all have "big windows" in the pilothouse! Oh no! So do all sorts of other boats. The fact of the matter is, laminated glass is the strong part of that build. You just have to be sure they haven't cheaped out on you and used tempered glass like Bene would!


I assure you, there are many of my clients out in the Bering right now, with big seas and big windows all around. They all think sailors are nuts for going to sea in boats with no pilothouse. In really ugly weather, a good house is the ultimate piece of safety equipment. JMHO.

[minaret]

Oh, and by the way, I was aboard a new Nauticat 521 which our yard helped outfit a couple of years ago. I really disliked almost every change they have made to the molds/designs. The 521 might outpoint my boat by a few degrees, but that's it. I wouldn't trade mine straight across for a brand new 521, no way.


The 521 in question was owned by an Irish fellow, boat name of "Upchuck". He sailed her home from the dealership here in the PNW to Ireland via the Northwest Passage. Big windows and all...

[smackdaddy]

You seem to have trouble with clarity...and using bold tags. But I'll try once more, and then you're on your own...

Originally Posted by Exile

I believe you are overstating how complex you think the "new technologies" really are. In fact, Neil didn't even need to read the thesis you touted to understand that the adhesion properties of the Plexus bond on the Bene he worked on likely led to the failure of the surrounding laminate. It obviously needed either a stronger laminate, tabbing, or a thicker/wider layer of Plexus. Given the alternatives, Neil went with probably the most sensible & affordable choice, namely reinforcing the surrounding laminate.

The failure of the bond was pretty evident in the photos. Even a complete "poser" (as AVB3 likes to call us) can see that. You don't even need the thesis to draw that conclusion. But that's not the point.

Where the thesis comes in handy is in Neil's subsequent global diagnosis, from those photos, that Beneteaus (et. al.) are crap because of this technique - and that the company actually wants people screwed out there. That might fit with your world view of the modern sailboat industry. But I'm not willing to accept that kind of pronouncement at face value - despite Neil's impressive "boat tech" credentials, beer drinking abilities, and nutsack sensitivity.

The thesis shows several things that draw that diagnosis into question. First, the adhesive "fillet" in those photos is very, very poorly done and not at all to the industry standards covered in the thesis (basically no radius whatsoever). Even more importantly, it's very different from the fillets in the other photos of the other Beneteau bulkhead he showed (which had NOT failed) - which were done to the industry standards covered in the thesis.

So, what does that mean? Well, if you're just a debating cheerleader, it means nothing, you just make everything bold and talk louder. If you're at all discerning, however, you realize something doesn't add up in those particular photos.

Was it poor workmanship on this single boat? Did the entire fleet of that year have this same poor workmanship? What year was that? Is this even a structural bulkhead? Is this even a Beneteau? You don't know, for certain, any of this from those photos. Yet, you're willing to jump in head-first.

Second, Neil didn't know what was plexus adhesive vs. headliner adhesive in those photos (green and yellow). So, again, something is off somewhere.

Third, the thesis makes very clear points (backed by evidence) that are diametrically opposed to the general pronouncement by several in this thread that adhesives like Plexus are "inferior" to tabbing. For example, everyone around here assumed that a Plexus bond would fail at the varnished surface of the wood (where most tabbing typically fails over time). The photos here, however, show the failure at the glass instead. So, yet again, something is off somewhere...for those that actually think about it for a moment. Yet no one has tackled that one.

See, you are basing your bolded pronouncements on a single set of photos that could be showing anything...even an Oyster bulkhead...or the inside of an Ikea cabinet. But whatever they are showing doesn't line up with what's being touted in the tabbing debate - nor does it line up with what's in a non-marketing-based, academic thesis on this exact matter.

Now, that's all fine if you need to simply maintain a position in a debate. Nothing needs to really line up. Me? I choose to be a bit more discerning.

Originally Posted by Exile

Ahhh . . . but here is where you have deceived yourself. Just like trying to sort through the bluewater vs. modern boat debate, figuring out which boat tech's opinions are sound can only come with experience.

Sure, you can always "Google it," but how will you really know until you've seen jobs that are properly done & those that are not?

Actually no. "Experience" (as you're framing it) is not at all the only way to judge a boat tech's opinions. Second opinions are pretty readily available - on this forum, in The Google, via other "boat techs", etc.

It's only when you believe one "boat tech's" opinions without checking into it further that you typically run into trouble.

In fact, I'm very confident that even a "poser" could tell that the rat's nest left behind in my bilge by a trusted "boat tech" was not ABYC-level work. No experience required.

Originally Posted by Exile

That's why I previously pointed out some value in your messed up electrical job. Everyone makes mistakes getting jobs done in the beginning, just like everyone probably buys unnecessary or substandard gear at first. ... Are you saying you've always hit the mark buying the right stuff, right away, the very first time?

This is a very, very strange point. My messed up electrical job was courtesy of one of these "boat techs" you say I should respectfully deign to until I have "more experience". So you're saying that I should be grateful that I have to fix it, and be forgiving because "everyone makes mistakes getting jobs done in the beginning"...even highly paid yard guys?

I'm sorry. But that's ridiculous.

So, I'm sure you're making some profound point here should humble me in some way. But...I ain't seein' it.

Okay - that's the best I can do for you. Now to more heady matters.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Polux

Minaret's boat is very different from the Nauticat 38 and the "windows" are proportionally smaller. The Nauticat 38 belongs to the motorsailers line, really old designs with an almost full keel and huge superstructures. The design is so old that Minaret's boat, not being on the Nauticat catalog, has a much more modern (and better) design, specially in what regards the hull and keel design.



Nauticat are very well built but that has nothing to do with being a bad or a good design. Only the more recent boats on Nauticat catalog can be considered modern designed, in a sense that the design is actual and more effective in what regards sailing. Particularly the 385 is a good design and a good sailing boat even if a bit fat for my taste The Nauticat 385 is an incomparably better offshore sailing boat if compared with the Nauticat 38 (still on Nauticat catalog also).

Woah! You compare the old and new designs...and that's downright scary!

That skeg is almost gone! It's like a spade rudder with a nod to a skeg for the die-hards. And that keel is a FIN!!!! And no grab rails on the ceiling???????

Good lord - we're all gonna die. DEFINITELY not a "blue water" boat.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by avb3

Nor does an A8 rating for that Bene 38, no matter how much support you seem to give it. It is a manufacturers rating....

Some are well qualified to do those long off shore passages. Boats like the Bene 38 do not fit into that category.

Presuming again? That's a lot of certainty in proclaiming the entire Conformité Européenne a sham.

Originally Posted by avb3

and you even acknowledged that in the real world, you would not be doing long, extensive ocean passages in F8 conditions with 8 people aboard.

I hope someday you come back and read this statement and realize how strange and completely disconnected it was to the subject being discussed.

[neilpride]

I believed you had surpassed the Plexus drama, but i see,im wrong.
You have few options.
Dont believe the experts.
Believe brochures.
Believe the industry.
Or find other fórum opinions.
Or dont believe nothing.

Actually you won the medal in the point number 1,2,3 and number 5.
Im still interested if you come with other expert opinions, but seems to me you are not interested, maybe you need or want at any cost to believe what you want to believe, incredulous. But the incredulous open the eyes when see a small evidence and start to ask why, discuss with you is like discuss with a Stone.

You say you need to see more evidences, if you think im going to waste my time taking pictures here and there for the only joy to give you another point to discuss the same thing over and over, well keep dreaming.. ask Minaret if is interested...

We are give it to you excellent info and advice for free, you dont want it because you dont believe it, actually you believe something man? im ok with you if you dont trust a picture or opinión , but dude, come with something solid to contrast the info.

You come with your hands empty shouting the same song over and over, is geting boring Smack.

The failure bond in my bene picture come from a owner who ask me to take a look at the cabinet doors in the kitchen because they dont close properly, since i know very well this boats , i check hinges first, nothing, run straight to the bulkhead and found the whole bulkhead unbonded, thats it , no excuses no BS.
The boat made 2 atlantic croosings before, no groundings or collisions , nothing ,a excellent well maintaned beneteau .

The Rudder post pictures in the oceanis show under my own objective opinión a wrong way to build a rudder post structure, pan head screws, shallow fillets of glue over varnish etc... then you have Blue Pearl sinking, same beneteau model, then you have the guys in SN with a topic about the lack of glue in the rudder tube in the same beneteau oceanis model , even Beneteau admit the mistake , a isolated incident they say, there is a mysterious Bulleting from a BVI chárter company between beneteau and the chárter company.

So, you dont believe that, i know, do yourself a favor, flashlight in hand , dive in your hunter 1989 maybe what you looking for is there..
Cheers.

[smackdaddy]

Neil - I was past Plexus. Exile wasn't. So blame him.

Also, I didn't come empty-handed. I found a very compelling thesis on the subject, and have tried very hard to provide links, photo evidence, etc. from "viable" sources for every point I've made (Internationally recognized CE Standards, various yacht builders' specs, rally numbers, etc.).

The only problem, it seems, is that I continue to question. Well, that won't change.