Teak and Holly Tongue and Groove - Marine Wood Products

[zachduckworth]

Hi everyone,

I'm planning a complete refurb of the cabin sole of my 1984 Islander Bahama 30. It currently has a teak and holly veneer. I want to use wood, not synthetic. Instead of replacing it with veneer, I was thinking about replacing it with solid teak and holly planks. Maritime Wood Products has a set of 6' to 8' plans that come with tongue and grooves already cut in. I was going to use these to do the floor. They have a system where you epoxy the tongue and grove pieces directly to the substrate. Then I'd place some teak moulding around the edges. I think it would look sharp, and since I'd be doing it myself I'd save on labor. It looks like an interesting project.

Have anyone here used Maritime Wood Products or have any experience of putting in a tongue and groove floor of this sort? If so, how'd it going? Any pictures of the final product?

Thanks!

[skipmac]

Just did the sole in my 42 Pearson with teak and holly (actually these days it's maple). I also did epoxy to the existing sole. I spent a lot of time preplanning where to start, how many planks to the other side, will I end up with a 1/4" strip, etc. Once I figured that out the hard parts were going around doors, bends in the cabinets, etc. A couple of the tricky spots I spent an hour cutting one, multi curved piece to fit. Then I would spend the next hour and finish most of that section once past the edges.

The epoxy was a bit messy and trying to get it into the joints without getting it all over the top was more messy. I would lay down 4-5 planks, then screw blocks close to the last plank (the screw holes are covered in the next row), drive a tapered shim between the block and the planks to make the joints tight, then pile bags of sand on top of that row overnight until the epoxy set.

I also did 10 coats of varnish on the top of the planks before installation. Glad I did. I was concerned it might get slippery when wet so all the holly strips I added some non skid powder to the last coat of varnish. Doesn't show at all when it's down and gives great grip.

Looks great.

[zachduckworth]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Just did the sole in my 42 Pearson with teak and holly (actually these days it's maple). I also did epoxy to the existing sole. I spent a lot of time preplanning where to start, how many planks to the other side, will I end up with a 1/4" strip, etc. Once I figured that out the hard parts were going around doors, bends in the cabinets, etc. A couple of the tricky spots I spent an hour cutting one, multi curved piece to fit. Then I would spend the next hour and finish most of that section once past the edges.

The epoxy was a bit messy and trying to get it into the joints without getting it all over the top was more messy. I would lay down 4-5 planks, then screw blocks close to the last plank (the screw holes are covered in the next row), drive a tapered shim between the block and the planks to make the joints tight, then pile bags of sand on top of that row overnight until the epoxy set.

I also did 10 coats of varnish on the top of the planks before installation. Glad I did. I was concerned it might get slippery when wet so all the holly strips I added some non skid powder to the last coat of varnish. Doesn't show at all when it's down and gives great grip.

Looks great.

This is exactly the sort of reply I as hoping to get. I"m fortunate in that there are not rounded corners in my board, everything is at a right angle. It'll make the moulding work a lot easier too.

I was originally thinking about epoxying it to the substrate, but that has the disadvantage of making it impossible to get the floor up again. It seems like they attached the veneer plywood to the substrate with some sort of glue that has deteriorated.

If you look here you can see what I'm trying to fix:



The veneer is shot in that section. here I am holding up the plywood, it's about as stuff as cardboard now.



The substrate is in good condition though.

Here you can see where the entire piece of veneer has buckled up from the substrate, which is still flat:



My original idea what to pull up all the veneer to the substrate and start from there. But with what you're telling me, it might be significantly easier to put the new planks on top of the old veneer. I'd tear up the buckled section in the last picture to the substrate, and I'd tear up that damaged area to the substrate. I'd then use some West Marine high density filler, add that to some epoxy, and use that over top of the damages areas. Then I'd fare it down until its plumb with the rest of the floor. And after that I'd put in the T&G T&H over top of the old sole. That might make doing the bilge covers easier as well. The pull rings would no longer be completely flush though...

I'd plan on using moulding around the entire sole, so I can hopefully avoid the 1/4 strip issue that you mentioned. I have been concerned about that though.

Do you have any pictures of the final product? Also, where did you get your wood from?

Thanks again for that post, it was super helpful!

[Manateeman]

Well teak is nice but you are looking at a lot of work. I did a teak t&g herringbone sole on my 31’ Bruce King custom. Set in epoxy. The pieces were small. About 1&1/2 inches wide by one foot long. Underneath was a solid glass pan floor.
I’ll never do THAT again. Left it raw teak. Fantastic grip. Nothing ever lifted.
Outside...totally different. Set it in two part black rubber. Horrible intensive work.
Stuff did lift...completely off but took years.
I would not tongue and groove wide teak. And I’d never epoxy it down unless it’s narrow, dry and the subfloor is solid glass. Wood moves.
Our sole on our aluminum boat is a very dense Australian hardwood which is twice as hard as maple. Tongue and groove. Planks Runs fore and aft 4”x 3 to 5 feet. Cross beams are mahogany screwed and glued to angle aluminum. Planks are ring nailed after drilling on the tongue side so you don’t see the narrow head with fine stainless nails used on Cape Cod to fasten cedar clapboard on houses. We also glued each cross with 5200. Perfectly beautiful and stable. Finish is Minwax Captains stuff. In the bedrooms, it’s cypress 8 to 10” wide. We don’t have an inch of wood outside nor an inch of aluminum inside.
All our overheads are t&g pine edge staple in stainless. No nail heads.
Tongue and groove is great if you have the right wood...the right width to thickness, a solid substrate, a good fastening system, coated on both sides, and you know just how tight to butt it to allow for movement.
Welcome to the world of insane boatbuilders.
Mark

[zachduckworth]

To provide a reference for future readers (and myself), here is the floor in Skipmac's boat.


https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3659996

Sorry to hear about your engine, that sucks!

[zachduckworth]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Well teak is nice but you are looking at a lot of work. I did a teak t&g herringbone sole on my 31’ Bruce King custom. Set in epoxy. The pieces were small. About 1&1/2 inches wide by one foot long. Underneath was a solid glass pan floor.
I’ll never do THAT again. Left it raw teak. Fantastic grip. Nothing ever lifted.
Outside...totally different. Set it in two part black rubber. Horrible intensive work.
Stuff did lift...completely off but took years.
I would not tongue and groove wide teak. And I’d never epoxy it down unless it’s narrow, dry and the subfloor is solid glass. Wood moves.
Our sole on our aluminum boat is a very dense Australian hardwood which is twice as hard as maple. Tongue and groove. Planks Runs fore and aft 4”x 3 to 5 feet. Cross beams are mahogany screwed and glued to angle aluminum. Planks are ring nailed after drilling on the tongue side so you don’t see the narrow head with fine stainless nails used on Cape Cod to fasten cedar clapboard on houses. We also glued each cross with 5200. Perfectly beautiful and stable. Finish is Minwax Captains stuff. In the bedrooms, it’s cypress 8 to 10” wide. We don’t have an inch of wood outside nor an inch of aluminum inside.
All our overheads are t&g pine edge staple in stainless. No nail heads.
Tongue and groove is great if you have the right wood...the right width to thickness, a solid substrate, a good fastening system, coated on both sides, and you know just how tight to butt it to allow for movement.
Welcome to the world of insane boatbuilders.
Mark

The teak and "holly" I'd be using is delivered in random 6' to 8' pieces, 3/8 high, 2.5 inch wide teak, .5 inch wide maple.
The substrate movement issue is interesting. What if I went down to the substrate and hit it with penetrating epoxy, which was my original idea? And then I epoxied it onto the pre-epoxied substrate? My substrate is wood, btw.
My T&G plan is all at 90 degree angles , maybe 24 square feet at the most.

[Manateeman]

Pull up the delaminated stuff. All of it. Find some 3/4” thick cypress or hard pine and put down something solid. Thin 3/8 over a less than solid base will crack.
What’s holding up the furniture? The plywood? Is it like a plywood pan then they attached the interior?
Are there floor ribs or a grid...we can’t say much till we understand how she was built. Mark

[s/v Jedi]

I think the old veneer you have and the substrate under it… used to be one single product: plywood with teak and holly veneer top. They sell these same boards at many places.

I think you should remove the substrate and replace that as well. I recommend to coat the new plywood in penetrating epoxy before installing it. Totalboat sells very good penetrating epoxy that can be thinned even more with alcohol (I do that up to 50%).

[zachduckworth]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Pull up the delaminated stuff. All of it. Find some 3/4” thick cypress or hard pine and put down something solid. Thin 3/8 over a less than solid base will crack.
What’s holding up the furniture? The plywood? Is it like a plywood pan then they attached the interior?
Are there floor ribs or a grid...we can’t say much till we understand how she was built. Mark

The furniture is held up by the plywood, correct. I can tell when I look in the bilge; you can see where the hull runs along and below the floor. The substrate of plywood appears to be fine. The veneer was fine until the damage occurred.

I just looked at cypress; I like the price, and the relative ease. I can find any examples of boat soles made with it though. I also can't find many pictures of it close up and highly varnished.

[zachduckworth]

What if I used this?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-4-in-x...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

Just kidding.
Actually it might add a fresh Pequod-ish sort of look to the interior. I'd need some baleen accents...

[Jolly Roger]

Take a look at this job I did on my saloon floor. It might give you some pointers. CABIN SOLE

[Bill O]

We did a cabin sole of teak w/quarter sawn white oak strips, then finished w/tung oil to keep the natural grain of the wood for a more nonslip finish.
We wrote up 4 parts to the refit. Here is a link to the final article. https://phoenixketch.blogspot.com/20...4-finally.html

[Manateeman]

Zduck. Ok now we know what’s going on. Jedi is correct. What you have is plywood that the final layer is very thin teak and holly. So you have to dry it out or remove it and we can’t tell where the damage is or the extent of the damage.
I can tell you epoxy alone will not re laminate wet wood.
If...it’s a big if...the damage is limited to sections NOT supporting the furniture, then you can strip off that thin top layer, smooth it out, seal it with epoxy...and maybe a layer of glass cloth...smooth it out and then you can use a thin layer of whatever wood you wish.
We are not big fans of the teak and holly look. Nice clear well fitted teak or cypress is beautiful too.
Home Depot use to sell a clear cedar t&g and we did an overhead in it painted white. Very nice.
Teak herringbone is stunning but a huge amount of labor.
Did you look at teak parquet ? Huge assortment of patterns and not very expensive because it’s made from short pieces of teak.
We’ve seen a yacht where they had a nice solid subfloor covered in carpet and they epoxied teak parquet down.
Everything depends on getting a good base ready.
Happy trails.
Mark and the crew.

[Manateeman]

One thing we forgot...high heels.
Make sure whatever wood you use is strong or that you look at the feet of all your guests. We were asked how to repair a yacht because someone in high heels had created a zillion little craters.
We tried sanding then steam but that failed. Huge and expensive repair.
Just thought you’d need a laugh.
Mark

[Bowdrie]

As you can see from several posts, there are different paths to the same end.
Your decision of method will in large part be determined by the interface of sole with furniture and support structures.
If laying down the teak and "white wood" in separate strips, the traditional method is to have the narrow strips of white wood to be proud of the teak surface by ~1/8th".
This provides the "nonslip" characteristics even if the teak has many coats of varnish, and helps prevent "dents" in the teak.
Maple and holly are much harder than teak, (which is actually rather soft for a "hardwood").