Replaced wire/rope halyard with poly

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by roverhi

I may have missed it in the previous posts but the wire to rope splice should never be under load. When loaded the wire should have at least 3 or more raps on the winch drum and then the spliced rope to the cleat. The many failures of loaded/unloaded wire to rope splice is ample evidence why.

Unless you have chafe issues in the mast or elsewhere there is no reason to use any wire for the halyards. Modern high modulus wire is so much easier to use and stronger. T

I'm not fully clear as to your reasoning on this. Especially as over the years, we had dozens, & dozens of wire to rope splices where the splice bore the full load of what was on the line. Halyards, sheets, spinnaker guys, etc. From 35'ers up to Maxi's.

Often the spliced in section of wire was there for it's chafe resistance where the line went through the jaws of the spin pole, or over a sheave. Circumstances which would have chewed up the cordage of the day in minutes (or hours). No where near long enough to last us a leg of a race, let alone the whole thing.

Clarification would be appreciated on this, thanks.

[Don C L]

I remember seeing it both ways in the old days. It always bothered me a bit to see the wire going around the drum and scratching it, but I also used to look in wonder at the rope wire splice under a load! My current boat came with wire that had a crimp and a thimble and the line shackled to it. Since my halyards are not run internally the wire offered less windage, which was also the advantage in the older days of racing.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by roverhi

I may have missed it in the previous posts but the wire to rope splice should never be under load. When loaded the wire should have at least 3 or more raps on the winch drum and then the spliced rope to the cleat. The many failures of loaded/unloaded wire to rope splice is ample evidence why.

Unless you have chafe issues in the mast or elsewhere there is no reason to use any wire for the halyards. Modern high modulus wire is so much easier to use and stronger. T

AFAIK the wire is always under load and never on the halyard winch. It's also impossible when reefing the main.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by roverhi

I may have missed it in the previous posts but the wire to rope splice should never be under load. When loaded the wire should have at least 3 or more raps on the winch drum and then the spliced rope to the cleat. The many failures of loaded/unloaded wire to rope splice is ample evidence why.

Unless you have chafe issues in the mast or elsewhere there is no reason to use any wire for the halyards. Modern high modulus wire is so much easier to use and stronger. T

It depends on the setup, but a lot of older boats were set up with rope winches to control wire-rope spliced halyards. On these the splice was under load, and designed as such.

Switching to all Rope halyards now is unquestionably the better option. You may need to replace the sheave but that's about it.

[Boulter]

Hi:

I need some ideas on this topic too. My Tanzer 22 jib halyard definitely has meat hooks and the main can't be far behind.

The jib halyard is currently 25'9" 1/8 7x19 SS with thimble at both ends attached via crimp sleeves. The rope tail is 28' of 3/8" polyester (currently 3 strand) perhaps, though specified to be 5/16".

The main halyard is similar except it is 3/32" 7x7 SS.

The sheaves look to be 1/8" circular groove. External halyards, so two sheaves per halyard.

So I'd like to use Amsteel 3mm at $US0.40/foot (or even 2.5mm at $US0.25) for the entire length, except that I and likely the winch won't be able to grasp it. Does anyone have a specific recommendation as to covering material I can put over either size above, preferably available from Defender, that gets me to something workable for me and the winch, likely ending up at 5/16", but perhaps even down to 1/4" OD?

Anything wrong with this plan? Any other ideas?

Thank you for any tips.

Boulter

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Boulter

Hi:

I need some ideas on this topic too. My Tanzer 22 jib halyard definitely has meat hooks and the main can't be far behind.

The jib halyard is currently 25'9" 1/8 7x19 SS with thimble at both ends attached via crimp sleeves. The rope tail is 28' of 3/8" polyester (currently 3 strand) perhaps, though specified to be 5/16".

The main halyard is similar except it is 3/32" 7x7 SS.

The sheaves look to be 1/8" circular groove. External halyards, so two sheaves per halyard.

So I'd like to use Amsteel 3mm at $US0.40/foot (or even 2.5mm at $US0.25) for the entire length, except that I and likely the winch won't be able to grasp it. Does anyone have a specific recommendation as to covering material I can put over either size above, preferably available from Defender, that gets me to something workable for me and the winch, likely ending up at 5/16", but perhaps even down to 1/4" OD?

Anything wrong with this plan? Any other ideas?

Thank you for any tips.

Boulter

Buy 30' of 1/4" XLS yachtbraid, pull the core from one end a bit and tape & sew the Amsteel to it. Then pull the core on the other end so that you replace the core with the Amsteel. For finishing check the Youtube videos. I recommend a Flemish eye splice at the thick end for attaching a messenger line and a brummel lock eyesplice in the Amsteel end. Also, where the cover stops, I recommend to bury a foot or so into the Amsteel.

I think 5/16" double braid is too loose around 3mm Amsteel. For most sizes used, the core is 1/8" thinner than the total rope diameter.

[Compactorguy]

I went from wire to Dyneema on my Morgan 27 for the main halyard and have had no problems and love it

[nematon785]

Hey Big Jim,

I was reading a very good book about this subject just last night:

The Complete Riggers Apprentice by Brion Toss

You may find it useful.

Toss has a classic style, and a dry sense of humor, the book is incredibly thorough.

Another outstanding book is the Sailmakers Apprentice by Marino...

[01kiwijohn]

Aha! I wondered about that. My new main halyard contained instructions to have at least two wraps of wire on the winch drum. I was concerned about the splice in this case. However, out in the ocean, I spent a good deal of the time with a reef in the main, and then there were NO wire wraps on the winch but the splice took the full load. So, what is the right way here?
I am going to haul out and drop the mast, next week, so would appreciate some clarification on this. Or, should I just switch to dyneema and be done with it?

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by 01kiwijohn

Or, should I just switch to dyneema and be done with it?

If it's not too expensive for your tastes, that is the better solution I'd say. Or go the strong-but-a-tad-of-stretch-yet-cheaper route of using Dacron (poly) that I did My sails have rope luffs so they stretch a bit too. And yet (so far) I am still fast enough to beat that Triton!

[Boulter]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Buy 30' of 1/4" XLS yachtbraid, pull the core from one end a bit and tape & sew the Amsteel to it. Then pull the core on the other end so that you replace the core with the Amsteel. For finishing check the Youtube videos. I recommend a Flemish eye splice at the thick end for attaching a messenger line and a brummel lock eyesplice in the Amsteel end. Also, where the cover stops, I recommend to bury a foot or so into the Amsteel.

I think 5/16" double braid is too loose around 3mm Amsteel. For most sizes used, the core is 1/8" thinner than the total rope diameter.

Thank you for that. One question, any reason not to use XL braid, it is a bit less expensive.

Boulter

[NakedCity]

I LOVE WIRE/ROPE HALYARDS

Been using them for 40 years.Twice I have wasted money on the latest , greatest high tech line only to go back to wire.

Defender sells kits pre spliced
Item#612193 5/32" 7x19 SS 40' & 3/8 Dacron double braid 50' $129.99
Includes a thimble and oval compression sleeve to attach shackle

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Boulter

Thank you for that. One question, any reason not to use XL braid, it is a bit less expensive.

Boulter

XL braid is fine, no problem.

[alexanick]

FYI, My 1970 Cal 29 came with a wire to rope jib halyard.

[Haida59]

Things to check:

Are your masthead sheaves wide enough to handle a double braid?

Has the wire damaged, sharped the edges or deeply grooved your sheaves?

If your sheaves are very narrow and won't handle a full double braid you have two options. First you can replace the rope to wire halyard with the same setup. Second option is to strip the cover back just enough on a Spectra or Dyneema cored double braid so just the core goes through the sheaves. If you are using a winch and/or clutches and/or human hands you will need to leave the cover on for the holding power.

Most boats with rope to wire halyards still use wide enough sheaves at the masthead to use a low stretch line. If the old sheaves are damaged consider replacing them. If you still use wire halyards the masthead is quite old.

Wire was used for its low stretch properties, when compared to a poly line. With the current availability of inexpensive tech line with poly covers wire has gone the way of the dinosaur. Wire also leave an awful mess of the mast, especially on boats with external halyards.

As for costs, in all my years as a professional rigger, by the time you factor in the splicing and wire cost, almost every customer has switched to a tech line (unless physical factors limited it)