Replaced wire/rope halyard with poly

[s/v Jedi]

Here's my recommendation: measure the diameter of the steel wire so we know how strong it is. For now I'll take something I think is right:

replace the halyard with 3/16" Dyneema that can stand UV well, like Samson Amsteel Blue. If your winch or clutch can't deal with that thin diameter, then add a sleeve to the part of the halyard that you need it.

You should not have the main halyard from two different materials that are spliced. This is okay for jibs but not for the main because then you get the splice plus a length of lower grade rope in use when you reef.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

The existing halyard is about half and half. My manual specifies 36 feet of wire and 39 feet of rope. Since the mast is 33 feet high, that means that the wire is nearly the entire length of the mast so about 10 feet of rope would still be exposed to the winch. Not that much. So stretch would be minimal. But it also means that the splice is never exposed to the weather or sun.

So what would be worse? A wet splice inside the mast, or a dry splice exposed to the rain and sun whenever the sails were down.

Believe me, the splice will always be wet at sometime or another .

One reason to stick with SS wire as you can't see the gal deteriorating inside the rope.

BUT as others have said, wire/rope has long gone in popularity since the event of Spectra etc. and these far outlast both poly and wire/rope combos. Given you stated sailing endeavours, you will not have to replace a Spectra halyard for decades and they are way nicer to handle especially as a SS wire section halyard will develop meathooks sooner or later - as per Ann's post.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Pass on the wire/rope halyards. The cost of the splice will probably make the halyard cost more than a purely Spectra halyard anyway. And a Spectra cored halyard will surely outlive a wire/rope one. Plus they're a lot easier on hands & hardware.
I say this having given up on wire/rope halyards a couple of decades back, even when I was doing the splicing myself. So the cost was negligable. Just make sure that there aren't any burrs on the sheaves, nor in the mast where the halyard runs.

Also, realistically speaking, you'll not be using anything smaller than 3/8" Warpspeed on boats 30' & larger. Both for ease of gripping it, & so that it will fit winch self-tailers. Yes, from a strength perspective, with some cordage you can go smaller. But unless you're racing, & trying to save those extra 12oz aloft, it's not worth it. And halyards that aren't pushed as hard tend to live longer. Pushed meaning tensioned close to their WLL.

Oh, & it's entirely possible to bulk up halyards where they pass through your line clutches so that the clutches hold better. Either by adding a section of line inside of the core of the halyard, or adding a bit of extra cover on the halyard's outside.
You'll likely need to lock stitch either in place, along with tapering it's ends. And coating the line with a couple of coats of Maxi Jacket II or RP25 to enhance the line' abrasion & UV resistance.
There are pics & explanations here --> Sailboat Running Rigging Splicing Services | APS


EDIT: The general rule of thumb regarding sheave diameters for halyards is that the sheave should be 8x the diameter of the line being used. This is so that the line's going around a sharp turn doesn't contribute to it's early demise, & or weaken it.

On wire/rope halyards, stick with stainless wire. And the splice should end prior to it's falling on the winch. Since asking it to make sharp turns where it's heavily loaded is bad for it's health. Some racing boats will keep the wire a bit longer, but there's little enough gain from it. Well, other than it gives you some room to snip off & recrimp worn wire near the masthead if/when it gets worn.

And to answer the question on splicing wire to spectra, yes it's been done, ditto with kevlar, etc. But the reality is that cordage is so much lighter, & longer lived that there's little reason to. We did a few spinnaker guys & jib sheets that way, where the abrasion factors were severe, but otherwise... it wasn't worth the trouble mostly.
Spin pole jaws on big boats/maxi's tend to eat cordage, especially on long ocean races. But this was before good chafe sleeve material was invented.

[Mossy Man]

I replaced the wire on my mast mounted halyard winches with spectra. Outstanding result. So much safer and easier than dealing with wire halyards on old winches. Over the top for an Aussie but even colour coded them for port and starboard halyards.

[Browning]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Odds are the sheave was damaged long prior to switching halyards. But yes, it's definitely a wise idea to inspect them prior to changing halyard material. (...)

So how do you inspect the rigging up there if you cannot trust the sheaves?

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Browning

So how do you inspect the rigging up there if you cannot trust the sheaves?

- Replace them long prior to them beginning to look suspect. Sheaves are cheap.
- Replace'em when the mast is down. <-- Wisest, as if the sheaves are shot, some other key bits probably are too.
- Attach your bosun's chair to a crane to do your mast maintenance.
- Go up on 2 seperate halyards/sheaves. <-- The most common method.
- Climb the headstay, & clip in when you get up there. <-- Advanced method.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

(...) The cost of the splice will probably make the halyard cost more than a purely Spectra halyard anyway. (...)

Not in my experience. I splice them at home and they come at about a third of a Spectra one. It is a bang easy splice, no need to buy the service.

A 10 mm poly tail matches 5 mm wire. And 5 mm wire is less expensive than that tail.

With a 10 mm poly tail you will not want to go less than say 8 mm in Specta (actually Spectra core only).

Where we live (the EU) 8 mm Spectra is about twice the price of 10 mm pre-stretched poly.

I have quoted last season figures for a 25 halyard above.

Cheers,
b.

[Mark Thurlow]

One last point -if the sheave is okay and all the above advice is good.... check that the halyard to sail interface will still fit with fibre.

I did all you did but the last 10cm was the problem.

Solved by taking off the outer protection/sheaf and leaving only the dyneema core.

Good luck.

Mark

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Not in my experience. I splice them at home and they come at about a third of a Spectra one. It is a bang easy splice, no need to buy the service.
Ain't many folks would argue that this is an easy splice as compared to most, & especially not when compared to splicing 12-strand Dyneema. Who has the tools, training, & talent to DIY them anymore? And yep, that question's rhetorical, as very, very few people do.

A 10 mm poly tail matches 5 mm wire. And 5 mm wire is less expensive than that tail.
10mm doesn't even remotely match 5mm wire when you compare the WLL of the two, let alone their vastly differing stretch characteristics. In order to get a WLL in double braid close to that of 5mm wire, you need 12mm double braid.

With a 10 mm poly tail you will not want to go less than say 8 mm in Specta (actually Spectra core only).
What you're saying here is unclear. But I can tell you without question that no 10mm polyester rope has yet been made that remotely approaches 8mm Dyneema in strength. The strength difference between the two is 3:1
And 8mm Dyneema cored line is twice as strong as 10mm double braid polyester.

Where we live (the EU) 8 mm Spectra is about twice the price of 10 mm pre-stretched poly.
In the US the price difference is about 1.5:1

I have quoted last season figures for a 25 halyard above.

Cheers,
b.

Okay, here’s something of a cost breakdown as I see it. And this is to benefit other members, not to verify my veracity.
In making this comparison of the 2 types of halyards; wire to rope, & purely high modulus rope, I’m drawing all of my cost numbers from Annapolis Performance Sailing, simply because the costs on their site are easy to find/look up. Plus the company is a pleasure to deal with in my experience.www.APSltd.com

I’m going to assume for now that 99% of sailors out there can’t, & won’t do their own wire to rope splices. Which is probably reasonable, non?And the below numbers represent an “average” 100’ halyard.With a bit of extra cordage on each end, for the adding of the crimped eye, length losses due to splicing, etc. And while the sizes of the materials in the wire to rope halyard may seem large, they still don't match the WLL of the Dyneema cored one.
But don’t just take my word for it, do the numbers for your boat yourself.

Wire to Rope Halyard Cost Breakdown:
45’ of 7/32” wire at $1.53/ft -> $68.85
55’ of 1/2” Samson XLS double braid at $1.59/ft -> $87.45
Wire to double braid splice $100
Nicopressed thimble/eye for shackle about $12
Reeving Splice -> Gratis. I figure any owner can do one, & should have them on ALL of their halyards.
TOTAL $268.30
Not including shipping, which will be significantly higher for this halyard due to weight differences.

Dyneema Cored Double braid Halyard Cost Breakdown:
110’ of 3/8” Maxi Braid Plus at $2.30/ft -> $253
Luggage Tag Splice -> Gratis. Most owners can & do splice Dyneema.
Reeving Splice -> Gratis. I figure any owner can do one, & should have them on ALL of their halyards.
TOTAL $253
Not including shipping

NOTE: If we switch to MLX instead of Maxi Braid Plus (above), 110’ of line costs $203.50 TOTAL. And you still get a halyard which is as strong as the delineated wire to rope option (for $65 less).

So at face value, the pure cordage halyard is cheaper. However one can also easily end for end the Dyneema Cored halyard when an end gets worn, then snip off the raggedy bits, & re-splice it.Or just snip of the raggedy bits & re-splice it ,without the end for ending bit.Either way you’ll get more useable life out of it’s cordage, than you will from the materials in a wire to rope halyard.Plus you needn’t deal with meat hooks, cable grooves worn into mast walls, sheaves/sheave boxes being scored by wire, or spreader bars sawed in half by wire halyards. And yeah, that last one's quite expensive, & definitely possible.

Also while you can shorten the metal section of a wire to rope halyard a few times on it’s metal end, this will need to be done greater frequency than re-splicing a cordage one. Since rigging wire breaks down where it passes over sheaves a lot more quickly than does cordage.Plus there’s no structural splice hidden from view, inside of a 100% cordage halyard, to be unable to inspect for wear or corrosion.

Then of course there’s the weight aloft issue. You save 5 pounds per synthetic halyard, easy.Double that (or more) anytime it’s raining.Since Dyneema doesn’t absorb water, where double braid dacron is a sponge. Plus, Dyneema is the most abrasion/chafe/friction resistive line out there.Particularly when it’s UV resistance is factored in.

[UNCIVILIZED]

BigJim (& others) if your old rigging is simply suffering from a horrible case of dirt & mildew, it's probably worth cleaning it up so that you can give it a good inspection, prior to pronouncing judgement & then throwing it away. As I've cleaned up some pretty abysmal cordage over the years, & gotten lots of life out of it. Thus if you like, I can re-post the bit I wrote ages back on washing running rigging. As there are some do's & don'ts. Just LMK.

[Stumble]

Uncivilized,

You forgot to taper the dyneema core line. As a rule of thumb you can get away with about 1/3 less line with a tapered line, so instead of 110' you probably need 70' at $2.30/ft so that's $168.50 plus some pretty simple splicing for the lightestand strongest option.


I have done all sorts of rigging, do all my own splices, and worked commercially as a deck hand/ assistant rigger for a maxi racing team. I wouldn't have the foggiest idea how to do a doublebraid-wire splice, and I know the local rigger doesn't either. Their shop just flatly refuses to do them anymore.

I guess if you really wanted to save a couple of bucks you could do a dyneema-double braid splice. But I can't see the point for most applications, it's a royal pain to do, and doesn't save much.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Stumble,
Thanks! What you say is true enough. And as I'm sure you know, one can splice a double braided dacron tail onto high modulus line as well. Though it's just another variation of what you're suggesting. Surely saves $ though. And I've seen, & crewed on quite a few boats where such splices should've been employed... in lieu of $8+/ft runner tails.

Wire to rope splices take more tools, more time, more practice, little tricks in their execution, etc. And the "price" of one failing is pretty high. But once you learn'em, the basics stick with you.

This thread has me wondering why Dyneema is so expensive, comparitively, in some places. Europe, Australia, & some others. Maybe the next time I travel I'll just fill my suitcase with Amsteel, & sell it while I'm there to fund my trip, & new wardrobe Call it a hold over from the Cold War days, when selling a few pairs of blue jeans while on vacation in some locales would finance your entire trip!

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

(...)

I’m going to assume for now that 99% of sailors out there can’t, & won’t do their own wire to rope splices. Which is probably reasonable, non?

(...)

Wire to Rope Halyard Cost Breakdown:
45’ of 7/32” wire at $1.53/ft -> $68.85
55’ of 1/2” Samson XLS double braid at $1.59/ft -> $87.45
Wire to double braid splice $100
Nicopressed thimble/eye for shackle about $12
Reeving Splice -> Gratis. I figure any owner can do one, & should have them on ALL of their halyards.
TOTAL $268.30
Not including shipping, which will be significantly higher for this halyard due to weight differences.

Dyneema Cored Double braid Halyard Cost Breakdown:
110’ of 3/8” Maxi Braid Plus at $2.30/ft -> $253
Luggage Tag Splice -> Gratis. Most owners can & do splice Dyneema.
Reeving Splice -> Gratis. I figure any owner can do one, & should have them on ALL of their halyards.
TOTAL $253
Not including shipping

(...)

Yes.

I think your breakdown is right. You can immediately see we worked to different set of assumptions, me assuming a wire to poly splice is something most sailors cat execute with their eyes shut.

I am aware there are more than one mindset about boat works, even the basic ones. Then sure very many and likely most people who own boats would have it done your way.

So, I believe, the conclusion could be that it is way cheaper of you splice it at home and about the same price if you get it done in a shop.

BTW you gave me a good tip too as I never charged anyone for this splice, but I will charge them boat owners 100$ apiece from now on. I always charged something (about $25) for Spectra splices as so few people know how to do them well - I have seen them done as if they were poly lines in which case they at times snapped open. Probably a point in case "how to make (some) money cruising" too.

Thanks for all the effort and good work done collecting and going thru the numbers!

Cheers,
b.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Glad that the cost breakdown helps, & by helps, I mean more than just one person. Itemizing often does that, even for me. Thus helping to smooth the waters.

As to total costs, if one does all of their own splicing for both types of halyards, & follows Stumble's method for all rope ones, then it's still about as cheap to make an all cordage halyard as it is when compared to a wire to rope one. Although some of the perks of being able to end for end the halyard become a bit more complex. Though they are still viable, but require a bit more DIY rigging/splicing.

[Stumble]

I am not a fan of dyneema-double core splices. It can be done, but I rarely see the point. If you are using poly then strength/size isn't you main concern, in which case there are single braid polyester lines that splice just like dyneema (Tenex Tec for one). End to end splicing this into dyneema is dead on simple, far, far easier than the single-double braid splice.

I guess it's just a use case problem rather than a technical one. I can't think of a situation where a double-dyneema splice would be my first choice. Though I do wish you could just by the outer cover of polyester lines. I really hate that the only covers on the market are crazy high tech stuff like Flavored Ice. It's great stuff, but I don't need a Kevlar/Technora/xylene blend cover, I just need a busker for the clutches.