Moving Aboard in New England Need Heat

[Sandero]

Get yourself and Espar Airtronic 4. You can install it yourself... easy peasy... Contact

rlawrence@esparparts.com

I have a 36' in LIS and stay on a mooring... w/ the Espar it''s toasty.

Rich Lawrence... he's very helpful... you buy the parts from him...

[jpendoley]

Sandero,
Thanks for the heads up-are you onboard in the winter or just the shoulder months?

[jpendoley]

Originally Posted by ShaktisBoy

I have a slightly used 50,000 btu diesel heater system out of a friends catamaran, he moved south. PM me for details

Shaktis, 50,000 BTU is probably too big-sounds like a hydronic which I can't do. Too expensive and too much electrical draw.

[Sandero]

Originally Posted by jpendoley

Sandero,
Thanks for the heads up-are you onboard in the winter or just the shoulder months?

I winter wet store and I will visit the boat and fire up the Espar... do some work aboard... but no don't live aboard in winter. But I have years ago and I supplemented a D3L with a ceramic electric heater as I was dockside... and that winter was cold as hell.

You'll find with the Airtronic 4.

it's quiet
it heats the boat pretty quick (can't speak about from very cold to toasty warm)
uses little diesel
goes into a quiet mode when design temp is reached

[UNCIVILIZED]

Sorry to hear about the girlfriend issue. Perhaps there's yet some luck there

Some of this post is borrowed from one I penned for another thread on heating, though most of it applies here as well. And said old thread, as well as others on heating certainly are worth finding & reading. As there's a lot of info in them yet to be mentioned in this one. Such as that even with a forced air furnace it's often worth also adding a floor or bulkhead mounted heater. To include hydrionic heater coils in such a heater, & possibly external coils for heating water around the exhaust stack of such heaters as well. And or, adding thermal mass near/around any heat source that you add to the boat.

Here's the clip from the other thread --> http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...es-138936.html

On the staying warm part, there are a couple of things not yet much mentioned that are key. Probably the most important one is having (or adding/adding to) good insulation on the boat. Both in/on the hull sides, & overhead.
It makes a huge difference. For example, I lived on a boat in Port Townsend, WA for a while, & it could by 45 degrees outside & yet comfy inside of the boat just in shirt sleeves (sans heat), due to it's cored construction. Foam cored hull, & decks.

I stress the insulation thing, as, I know what the winds up there can be like. Plus, without it, even with decent heat on the boat, there will be cold spots, & it'll be drafty regardless of how much you turn up the heat. That, and you'll have a LOT more condensation.
It's easy enough to add via a variety of techniques, & needn't be expensive either. And it also helps tone down some of the windnoise a bit.

The other thing which plays a big factor is wind patterns, & finding a spot where your vessel is tucked in behind something, or someone (else), so that you don't bear the brunt of the chill winds. Especially given how hard it can blow there.
I'm not familiar with the micro-climate of that locale, but for instance, when a storm would come into PT, the bulk of the winds were from the S. So it'd make sense to check out the area, & find a shielded/lesser wind prone spot there.
To perhaps assist with this, not long ago I added a post to a thread on finding wind info in a given locale, so that might be of help.

Also, if you're serious about keeping the boat warm, take a good look at her through a thermal imager (just as they do for land based homes), from various angles, on a blustery day. It'll show you where you're bleeding heat, & what needs working on.

Here's a thread on the condensation issue, with, perhaps some fresh ideas http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1713108

Too, think hard on how you plan to control moisture in locations such as underneath of your bunk. Since that's one of the prime areas that it occurs. There are some tips in one of the above linked thread. As well as in wr wrangell's blog Denali Rose They live & sail in SE Alaska, & so have some good info on heat, condensation issues, etc.

[jpendoley]

Uncivilized, thanks for the kind words-I've lived aboard at -10 F and insulated my little Pearson Vanguard properly-made life aboard very doable. That boat was heated at a dock with a little Dickenson P12000 and a ceramic supplemental on low. Could not keep it warm until I laid an inch of polyiso against hull above the water line. Harbor froze that year.

No time for insulating this time and a bigger boat and I'll be on a mooring. Diesel packs more heat so am thinking a D4 Espar or equivalent should get me through. May also add a diesel fireplace down the road.

As for the the GF, I'd rather have a wolfhound to keep me warm.
Jim
s/v Walkabout

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by jpendoley

Uncivilized, thanks for the kind words-I've lived aboard at -10 F and insulated my little Pearson Vanguard properly-made life aboard very doable. That boat was heated at a dock with a little Dickenson P12000 and a ceramic supplemental on low. Could not keep it warm until I laid an inch of polyiso against hull above the water line. Harbor froze that year.

No time for insulating this time and a bigger boat and I'll be on a mooring. Diesel packs more heat so am thinking a D4 Espar or equivalent should get me through. May also add a diesel fireplace down the road.

As for the the GF, I'd rather have a wolfhound to keep me warm.
Jim
s/v Walkabout

Yep, I understand about the wolfhound. When we were growing up, my brother & I had a 100lb, 4-legged "nanny" (Rottweiler) who kept us warm when backpacking. Even in Midwestern winters. And unlike GF's, dogs don't put cold feet on you unannounced, nor steal covers

As to insulating. Look into some of the soft, closed cell foams, similar in feel to wresting mats. It's fairly easy to apply quickly to hull sides, & then cover with automotive carpeting. As I learned thanks to my neighbor when living on my 1st boat. Which was surprisingly quick & easy to insulate.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jpendoley

Jim and Tom, thanks for your replies. I like the idea of a forced hot air system because I do not want to cut a 3 inch or 4 inch hole in my deck if I don't have to. The forced hot air systems can be snapped in place and even removed without a lot of work.
Tom you are the first person I know of who mentioned the planar systems, so you are happy with it? I could buy three of them or more for the cost of a webasto

You need to spend some time reading up on Webasto and Espar systems -- both air and hydronic.

These are really not that hard to install with basic skills and time on your hands. You should be able to pick up the kit for a grand or less on FleaBay. Don't be tempted to buy a used one -- go new. There are a lot of expensive and hard to diagnose components inside -- you want to start with everything zero timed and preferably with a warranty.


I guess in a P365 (I used to have one of those BTW) you won't really need hydronic, but it's nice to be able to heat water, and it's possible it will be easier to install in that particular boat.

You will have to cut a hole in your transom for the exhaust, but you correctly surmise that this is far simpler than a big hole in the deck which would be needed for a different kind of system.

There is plenty of space in the P365 cockpit lockers for this unit, but you will end up with a longish run of air duct (the P365 doesn't have quarter berths), which is not optimal. This is why you might consider hydronic.

If you go hydronic, then by all means use fan coils and not baseboard radiators. Passive radiators are nice, but there is just no place for them in the P365. There are several good places to put fan coils.


Good luck, take photos, and let us know how you get on.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jpendoley

Folks, can't thank you enough for the iexperience on the forum it is in valuable. I understand the electric hit from the blower, But the sun is higher in April and I've got 300 W of solar so I should be able to keep up.

If you are spending days and nights on board with the heat running, I think it's unlikely that 300 watts of solar will keep up. You will want to have some kind of generating capacity -- something like a Honda suitcase generator at minimum.t a


I lived on board my boat several winters on a mooring in the Hamble River, and as much as I adored the beautiful river, I found it to be an uncomfortable life. That despite having a land base -- I rented a dinghy berth at a nearby marina and so had access to all their facilities. And despite having a heavy duty diesel generator.

I burned a lot of diesel fuel and put a lot of hours on the machinery. And it was a PITA to shuttle back and forth to shore every time I needed to buy groceries or anything at all, and if I didn't shuttle back and forth to shore, I did get a little tired of being cooped up.

Since I am away for four months every summer, I finally gave up that mooring and moved to a marina (in Cowes). Since I don't need the marina berth in the high demand season, I was able to negotiate winter rates from September through April -- which are about one-sixth of the normal rates. So I'm now paying less than $300 a month including electricity, which is probably not more than my variable costs (fuel and maintenance) of generator and heater on the mooring, and certainly less when you consider amortization and major repairs of that gear, plus wear and tear on the dinghy, etc.

And then to boot I have direct walk-on access to land, and can wander around as much as I like instead of being cooped up on board.

You might consider doing something similar. Electric heat from shore power sure beats any other kind of heat. Webasto/Espar is great, but the maintenance and upkeep accrues by the hour, and can be expensive. I spent more than $1000 on my Espar hydronic furnace last year.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by jpendoley

I like the idea of a forced hot air system because I do not want to cut a 3 inch or 4 inch hole in my deck if I don't have to. The forced hot air systems can be snapped in place and even removed without a lot of work.

As compared to everything else that's involved with installing any, again, any, kind of shipboard heater, cutting a hole in the deck is a small thing. Even if you later pull the heater, & decide to patch the hole. As patching it will take but a few hours, not including painting & or fixing the nonskid. Which is a tiny amount of time compared to that spent installing a heater or insullation. And when balanced against freezing to death, the choice is a no brainer.

The other part of this heating, & insulating equation is that really, you want to have the boat be comfortable enough for anyone to spend time on her. Not just you, & your personal heating/temp. preferences. As otherwise you'll become a permanent bachelor with few guests, or social ties. To say nothing of an insufficient heating system devaluing the boat.

[CarlF]

Another vote for a Dickinson or Sigmar heater. While they are not really up to the dead of winter, they are perfect for March/April. This is what sailboats in New England have done for hundreds of years. It will warm both your boat and your spirits. They also do a great job driving out the persistant New England dampness.

The folks in Maine know a lot about these. Go to the Hamilton Marine's site.

I have an Espar. These are finicky unlovable things sold primarily for use in large trucks. The roaring noise from the exhaust is quite noticeable to your neighbors in the anchorage. Not to mention you.

And the removable chimney with its deck plate is frankly less of a problem than the complex and unatrractive fitting you have to mount in your topsides for the Espar.

[jpendoley]

Docket great post thank you. Hydronic would be easier on the 365. Routing the ducting for an air heater is going to be tough, but hydronic drinks power and is several magnitudes more expensive.probably will be on the dock for a couple of months but then I'm out on the mooring.

[jpendoley]

Uncivilized, all good points and I may wind up going diesel fireplace and diesel forced hot air. Insulating will happen but not in the next 60 days too short a time to do it right and make it look presentable.
It will all be pretty when I'm done, so will not be buying a wolfhound soon.

[jpendoley]

Also hate to mention them, but in Alaska the planar Russian manufactured heaters are really popular. They are half the price of the competition. There is an increasing network of dealer support, may have to consider. That way I could afford hot air as well as a diesel fireplace.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by jpendoley

Jim and Tom, thanks for your replies. I like the idea of a forced hot air system because I do not want to cut a 3 inch or 4 inch hole in my deck if I don't have to. The forced hot air systems can be snapped in place and even removed without a lot of work.
Tom you are the first person I know of who mentioned the planar systems, so you are happy with it? I could buy three of them or more for the cost of a webasto

Planars are Russian-made. Say what you will, but one thing Russians know a lot about is cold weather

So far, I'm happy with ours. Admittedly, I don't live aboard (yet) and I also have two reverse-cycle marine AC units and a generator, so 100% reliability isn't as big an issue.

The Planar puts out a lot of heat, fairly quickly. The noise is comparable to a regular air conditioner, actually a little quieter, but you do know when it's going. The fuel pump "clicks", which may be annoying to some. I think these are common complaints for all heaters. I like to know when things are working, so it doesn't bother me.

As you point out, it's still cheaper to buy two Planars than one of the western name brands. You could install both, or keep one for parts.

The exhaust flex pipe gets very hot. Locate the unit near where you plan to put the exhaust hole, and make sure there's a clear path to it without coming near anything combustible. I also made use of some automotive engine insulating materials (I guess used in custom race cars) I found on Amazon.

I went the easy way and used the small diesel tank that came with it, but I do have an electric pump to transfer fuel from the main tanks. It's also possible to use kerosene this way, which I'm told is cleaner burning and would be a good fuel to use in if it's going to sit a long time between uses. Apparently that causes build-up that shortens the life of some components.

If you do go the Planar route, PM me. I have translated some of the manual from broken English to something more intelligible.