Let's Talk Seacock

[Tanqueray]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The Groco flange shown in some of the posts above will solve any thread mismatch problem and will make the assembly somewhat stronger, but you have to drill three extra holes through the hull in each through hull position, protect the core properly if there is coring there, etc., etc., etc. I would never do that myself -- immense amount of trouble, plus added risks to the boat's core, for slight gain of strength. But to each his own, and you will have to make up your own mind.



Another thing I don't like about the flange is that it adds one more joint to the assembly, and you can't inspect the through-hull fitting without pulling the flange off. How many people with those flanges have ever pulled them completely apart to inspect the through hull fitting for dezincification or other deterioration? I'm guessing it's an even zero. And that is not good!! Also the length of the through hull fitting becomes absolutely critical, and how likely are you to get it exactly right? Sorry to the cultists, but I just do not like these.

You have provided some excellent info and advice in you post…

But you do not have to drill holes in the hull to use a flanged valve…Groco sells a a backing plate made for this application that gets epoxied to the hull. And inserts to thread bolts into. There are other ways to do it…all involving a fiberglass backing plate that gets epoxied to the hull and a way to fasten the flange to it.

I don’t know that the extra joint is the biggest danger…but you can get a Groco flanged valve instead, so no extra joint.

I am not a cultist…still have skin fitting threaded into ball valves on my boat…but I do plan to upgrade these to some sort of flanged seacock in the future.

Greg

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Tanqueray

You have provided some excellent info and advice in you post…

But you do not have to drill holes in the hull to use a flanged valve…Groco sells a a backing plate made for this application that gets epoxied to the hull. And inserts to thread bolts into. There are other ways to do it…all involving a fiberglass backing plate that gets epoxied to the hull and a way to fasten the flange to it.

I don’t know that the extra joint is the biggest danger…but you can get a Groco flanged valve instead, so no extra joint.

I am not a cultist…still have skin fitting threaded into ball valves on my boat…but I do plan to upgrade these to some sort of flanged seacock in the future.

Greg

As I said -- to each his own!

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Tanqueray

You have provided some excellent info and advice in you post…

But you do not have to drill holes in the hull to use a flanged valve…Groco sells a a backing plate made for this application that gets epoxied to the hull. And inserts to thread bolts into. There are other ways to do it…all involving a fiberglass backing plate that gets epoxied to the hull and a way to fasten the flange to it.

I don’t know that the extra joint is the biggest danger…but you can get a Groco flanged valve instead, so no extra joint.

I am not a cultist…still have skin fitting threaded into ball valves on my boat…but I do plan to upgrade these to some sort of flanged seacock in the future.

Greg

Yeah Groco provides 3 good options.

BV series. These are very well made and can be field stripped and repaired. Whole line of replacement parts to include valve stem, ball and wiper are available. Very solid piece of kit. Will likely outlive most sailors installing them. Hell might outlive your kids too. They are just terribly expensive. 1 1/4" valve = ~$500

FBV series. All in one like BV series but lower quality. No replacement parts so if one fails you are going to need to pull it to replace it. 1 1/4" = ~ $120.

IBV & IBVF series. IBV is the valve and IBVF is the flange. Two part. Essentially the same thing as FBV but split into two pieces. Again no replacement parts but if/when valve fails you can only replace the IBV. 1 1/4" = $100 valve + $70 flange = $170 total

The BV valves are very nice but the sticker shock is harsh. Hell it would be expensive even if half the price. I went with IBV (& IBVF) because when the valve inevitably fails don't need to pull the entire flange. If someone doesn't like the two part nature FBV is essentially the same valve in a single piece unit.

[s/v Jedi]

Problems listed in order of likelihood:

1. Cheap brass components used.
2. Bonding wires or other electrical/radio wiring attached.
3. No flanged fitting/valve used.
4. No backing plate or one that is rotten.
5. Laminate cored and not solid at thru hull fitting.
6. Bad location.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Statistical

BV series. These are very well made and can be field stripped and repaired. Whole line of replacement parts to include valve stem, ball and wiper are available. Very solid piece of kit. Will likely outlive most sailors installing them. Hell might outlive your kids too. They are just terribly expensive. 1 1/4" valve = ~$500

Right, not worth that kind of money for what they are.
They're in reality just a ball valve and a flange integrated into a one-piece unit.
And they still have several dis-similar metals and fussy parts to rebuild.
At that price you might as well save a few bucks and get a genuine Bronze tapered-plug seacock from Spartan.
https://www.spartanmarine.com/seacocks-thruhulls

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Right, not worth that kind of money for what they are.
They're in reality just a ball valve and a flange integrated into a one-piece unit.
And they still have several dis-similar metals and fussy parts to rebuild.
At that price you might as well save a few bucks and get a genuine Bronze tapered-plug seacock from Spartan.
https://www.spartanmarine.com/seacocks-thruhulls

I have never seen one fail and I can’t remember anyone posting about a failed one. Spartan is cheaper?

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Spartan is cheaper?

A previous post alluded to a 1-1/4 size Groco at ~$500, a Spartan in that size is listed at $479.
However, the 1-1/2 and 2" Spartan's are significantly more.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Right, not worth that kind of money for what they are.
They're in reality just a ball valve and a flange integrated into a one-piece unit.
And they still have several dis-similar metals and fussy parts to rebuild.
At that price you might as well save a few bucks and get a genuine Bronze tapered-plug seacock from Spartan.
https://www.spartanmarine.com/seacocks-thruhulls

Tapered cone seacocks have almost died out, and that's because besides being expensive, they are a lot of trouble compared to ball valves, even if they do last forever. A good ball valve might last 20 years with no maintenance other than exercising them, and maybe a squirt of grease now and again, and then you just pop it off and replace it.


The predominant high-end brand in Europe is Maestrini, comparable in quality to Groco and slightly more expensive. Good bronze underwater hardware is expensive, but $500 for a ball valve with a flange? The unflanged version is $97 (but is a different construction with brass rather than stainless steel ball). https://www.groco.net/ibv-1250 The 1 1/4" Maestrini ball valve is about €163: https://www.svb24.com/en/ball-valve-...le-bronze.html with stainless handle and stem, and plastic ball.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Tapered cone seacocks have almost died out, and that's because besides being expensive, they are a lot of trouble compared to ball valves, even if they do last forever. A good ball valve might last 20 years with no maintenance other than exercising them, and maybe a squirt of grease now and again, and then you just pop it off and replace it.


The predominant high-end brand in Europe is Maestrini, comparable in quality to Groco and slightly more expensive. Good bronze underwater hardware is expensive, but $500 for a ball valve with a flange? The unflanged version is $97 (but is a different construction with brass rather than stainless steel ball). https://www.groco.net/ibv-1250 The 1 1/4" Maestrini ball valve is about €163: https://www.svb24.com/en/ball-valve-...le-bronze.html with stainless handle and stem, and plastic ball.

Groco uses a chrome plated, solid brass ball which is very durable and good for the life of the valve. I have one in use for 20 years and it operates like new

I also have an expensive BV series flanged seacock and it’s been in use for 20 years as well and also operates like new. I must say that I had expected some surface corrosion on the stainless ball, but it operates smoothly so it must be high end steel.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Groco uses a chrome plated, solid brass ball which is very durable and good for the life of the valve. I have one in use for 20 years and it operates like new

I also have an expensive BV series flanged seacock and it’s been in use for 20 years as well and also operates like new. I must say that I had expected some surface corrosion on the stainless ball, but it operates smoothly so it must be high end steel.

Good ball valves should last 20 years and more for sure.


I have seen the chrome plating flake off brass balls more than once. I don't remember if it was on a Groco valve or not. I don't know if this problem is inherent or not, but I personally would tend to avoid these if possible.


Maestrini have gone to polymer balls in their most expensive ball valves. I think this is probably a good thing.


I didn't remember, but Maestrini also make flanged ball valves: Maestrini - Valves - 'VITTORIA' full bronze ball valve, F.F. flanged body, with draining ports, full bore polymer ball - Bronze - Code 28920. I've never once seen one of these on a European boat.

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Everyone is free to choose the valve and throughull material. I chose 316L CrNi material in order to prevent destructive corrosion caused by salt water effect of different metals. The force applied to the ball valve of the large holding tank valve increases over time, and I used a bony throughull made of the same material that counteracts this force, and openable elbow materials that remain above the waterline. These are all 316L crni. I know it's called pitting etc, but cost vs lifetime ratio and durability are important to me. In addition, the throughull region is sandwich structure and is more suitable for mounting a threaded mushroom type drain assembly. It is possible to buy all of them with the cost of the aforementioned composite or bronze single valve. My wrongly chosen brass throughull and 304CrNi 1.5" valve has completed its 12th year. This year, I am replacing my seawater suction and waste water discharge valves that are under the water line.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Good ball valves should last 20 years and more for sure.


I have seen the chrome plating flake off brass balls more than once. I don't remember if it was on a Groco valve or not. I don't know if this problem is inherent or not, but I personally would tend to avoid these if possible.

Yes I have seen chrome flake off from brass balls on many European production boats that seem to use the cheapest valves on the market, but never from a high quality Groco valve.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Tapered cone seacocks have almost died out, and that's because besides being expensive, they are a lot of trouble compared to ball valves, even if they do last forever. A good ball valve might last 20 years with no maintenance other than exercising them, and maybe a squirt of grease now and again, and then you just pop it off and replace it.


The predominant high-end brand in Europe is Maestrini, comparable in quality to Groco and slightly more expensive. Good bronze underwater hardware is expensive, but $500 for a ball valve with a flange? The unflanged version is $97 (but is a different construction with brass rather than stainless steel ball). https://www.groco.net/ibv-1250 The 1 1/4" Maestrini ball valve is about €163: https://www.svb24.com/en/ball-valve-...le-bronze.html with stainless handle and stem, and plastic ball.

The comparable Groco valve would be FBV and is ~$120.

The BV are just on a completely different price level and hard to justify.

[tsenator]

Originally Posted by stormalong

Skip the bronze quality dilemma - Go to plastic. Marelon or Truedesign. No corrosion worries. No maintenance other than turning the valve from time to time.

Before a certain individual chimes in be aware that there was a problem with Marelon 30+ years ago. Handles would break off. That problem was solved way back then.

LOL Tell that 'certain individual' that the name brand 'quality' marine bronze Groco ball valve handles are not much better. This is a fairly new Groco ball valve (less than 5 years) where I was closing the ball valve (with my weak left arm in an awkward position). I really didn't exert that much force and BOOM the nub you screw the handle on snapped off

[tsenator]

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

In addition to the subject of material selection, I think it is worthwhile to mention the use of ball valves and their long-term waiting position.

Valves whose outlet is under the water line are usually kept closed during long waiting periods. This is the right thing from a security standpoint. It is inevitable that the surface of the valve ball facing the sea outlet will stick to the surface of hard formations such as thyme etc. within a few months.

When you try to open the valve, which has been kept in the closed position for a long time, you will see that the force applied to the arm increases. There are two reasons for this, the first of which I explained above. The second is the increased pitting formations in the valve, especially since there is no oxygen circulation in the sea water trapped between the valve sphere and the valve body for long period of time.

In order to reduce both effects, it may be considered to leave the valve in the open position which is in a solid and reliable condition. Pitting oxidation will be prevented, especially if the valve is left in the half-open position in a controlled manner while sailing. It is also helpful to move the valve handle between fully open and fully closed positions during each visit to the boat.

This Groco Ball valve was left in the open position for the season . Not very "solid and reliable condition" It was stiff when I went to close it for the winter. Broke off nub that you screw into for the handle. Pretty lame