Full Keel vs Fin Keel

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dogscout

This just in................masts fall off!

Oh that's it, we are buying a trawler, or even safer a RV

Wait, nearly 2000 people died or were seriously injured on the UK roads last year. Number of deaths caused by keels falling off, erm

Coops, you seem to be keen to encourage people to use long keeled yachts. So were can one buy a new yacht with a long keel?

Pete

[Pizzazz]

One aspect not explicitly mentioned so far is that a full keel, being heavier and causing a bigger drag requires more sail area to obtain equivalent level of performance. More sail area is just harder to manage, heavier sails, heavier loads, especially in building seas and weather. You do have more comfort with a full keel but you can easily obtain more comfort with a bigger boat that will also be easier to drive in lighter winds. Therefore I think a fin keel is more versatile and the more important decision is boat length and hull shape vs keel type. Builders seem to agree and most modern boats are fin keel with modern hull shapes. So, I am firmly in the fin keel camp. But I also understand why some people choose traditional full size keel. Unfortunately, this means either buying an older second hand boat, building a semi custom new boat (eg Cape George) or going for odd, small scale builders such as Island Packet. There is so much more choice with fin keel boats.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Oh that's it, we are buying a trawler, or even safer a RV

Wait, nearly 2000 people died or were seriously injured on the UK roads last year. Number of deaths caused by keels falling off, erm

Coops, you seem to be keen to encourage people to use long keeled yachts. So were can one buy a new yacht with a long keel?

Pete

Pete

Long keeled yachts are like hen's teeth (no one wants to part with theirs). There's stacks of fin-keeled yachts for sale though (some still with the keel still attached!)

[MicHughV]

some many years ago, I sailed from Chesapeake Bay to Florida with another boat, a Hans Christian. For the first day or so, we were sailing right besides each other....and then the wind (and seas) picked up quite a bit....on the nose off course.....and things started to get a little knarly....me with my fin keel....and he with his full keel..I could point higher than him, but was taking it on the chin. On the other hand, he was falling off a bit, but was sitting back in the cockpit reading a book, enjoying a beverage, while I had to have both hands on the wheel. That brought a new perspective to me as to what makes an offshore boat an offshore boat...comfort at sea !!!
As much as I can see the benefits of a fin keel....bolted on or otherwise, there is no denying that full keels have their place. That Hans Christian was about 10,000 lbs heavier than my boat, but let me tell you, once the wind and seas picked up, that things lifted it's skirts and scooted off into the sunset....

[fireman182]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Oh that's it, we are buying a trawler, or even safer a RV

Wait, nearly 2000 people died or were seriously injured on the UK roads last year. Number of deaths caused by keels falling off, erm

Coops, you seem to be keen to encourage people to use long keeled yachts. So were can one buy a new yacht with a long keel?

Pete

Sam L. Morse will make brand new full keel boats for you. If you can afford the $200K starting price tag.

IF a used boat turns up on the used market, you're quick and you have $100k budget for a smallish boat you can join the coveted long keel club.

Up until 2017 you could buy a brand new full keel Hans Christian. Again they start at $200k

Statistically your diet is the leading cause of death and your biggest safety/health threat so don't worry about your seatbelt, life jacket or keel falling off

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

...That Hans Christian was about 10,000 lbs heavier than my boat, but let me tell you, once the wind and seas picked up, that things lifted it's skirts and scooted off into the sunset....

Unfortunately, "off into the sunset" was probably not the best way to get to Florida.

And tell us, pray, why did you have to "have both hands on the wheel"?

Our fin keel self steers quite well. Could be other design issues.

[JHW]

One major benefit of a gentle slope full keel is that it will usually be able to back off a grounding far far easier than a fin keel.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by JHW

One major benefit of a gentle slope full keel is that it will usually be able to back off a grounding far far easier than a fin keel.

Yes, although one of the negatives is that the same gentle slope allows the keel (and boat) to keep sliding up on top of whatever you've hit. A more vertical keel tends to bring the boat to a rather sudden stop.

... as me how I know .

[KelseyB]

I think that a lot of the pros and cons of both types but especially a full/long keel depend on everything else about the boat - I have a long keel, so that should mean less maneuverability and harder to back into my slip, but the boat's only 30 feet long, so it's still pretty easy to maneuver and park and even though it doesn't "pivot," it still makes pretty tight turns just because it's small. And if you want prop protection, there are other ways to do that besides getting a full/long keel, and if you want stability, there are also other ways to do that. And if you want a fin keel that's sturdy and won't get that classic crack on the forward edge, then really you just need a fin keel that is well constructed and well attached and not cheaply made. The speed thing is the only one that I can really think of that's not as subjective.

[Tatenda]

I was a passionate supporter of a full keel. So much so that I bought an Island Packet. Joined the ARC Caribbean 1500 and sailed to the BVIs in 2017. Winds were unusual that year and came from the south more than the west. Simply could not point to windward at all. The higher the wind, the worse it got. Most of the time we couldn't get within 60 - 65 degrees of the wind. We arrived 4 days after everyone else, accompanied by other full keel boats. The plastic fantastic fleet had been in for days and were enjoying Nanny Cay marina while we were beating back and forth gaining little ground.


Docking the vessel in tight marinas in trade wind conditions was also an adventure. The bow thruster didn't help. In the end we found ourselves reluctant to leave the dock because of the uncertainty of docking when we got back or at the next marina.


Sold the boat and bought a plastic fantastic, something I swore never to do. Horses for Courses, as they say, but I've come to appreciate speed on passage, maneuverability and ability to point to wind more than anything else. I wouldn't hesitate in taking our new old boat offshore, as the discussion has pointed out, there are many factors that go towards sea worthiness, and the skill of the skipper is possibly the most important.

[Nibiruwayne]

Originally Posted by fireman182

Hey Guys,

I'm just looking for thoughts on the great modern sailing debate. Old vs New. Traditional vs modern.

Full Keel vs Fin Keel. What are the pros and cons for each?

Is the fin keel the most popular design of todays modern sailboat? Is it safe?
Strong enough for the worst ocean weather?

What are your thoughts?

I came up with a few pros and cons.

Full Keel

Pro

Wont break off
Tracks better
Protects prop
Protects Rudder

Con

Difficult to maneuver
Heavier design


Was keel design a big decision when buying your boat??

Yes, keel design, draft, construction is a big one. Most fin keels on glass are bolt on, a solid collision can break the fiberglass bond at the seam of the hull to the keel. If not addressed, the keel bolts can deteriorate over time and develop a difficult leak to find. We had made an accepted offer on a 50' boat and during the survey we found a crack in the glass seam between the keel and the hull, and we immediately knew the keel would have to be removed, the bolts likely replaced, and reglassed and painted to feel confident for the future. We passed on the boat. A full keel is a much slower ride and less maneuverable both in forward and when backing down, as others have mentioned. It boils down to where you intend to sail, in my case. A shoal area , coastal, or shallow waters, are better suited to fin keels, even retractable keels such as a centerboard or swing keel. Centerboards are popular in heavy tidal ranges such as 10' to 20' or more tidal swings. A good ocean class centerboard can sail in 2 to 4 ' of water if necessary, opening up many secluded anchorages for a larger boat. A full keel , or even a fin keel is more difficult to unground. I've been grounded with my 5' keel and with my 9'5" keel, two very different boats. No doubt, the deep draft fin of 9'5" was an exceptional ocean boat with good response and speed, it was a 60' , no bow thruster, and a skeg rudder, giving the rudder protection, prop was immediately aft of the keel, and so had protection. However, in shallow
coastal areas, we were very limited as to where we could anchor, or make passage, having to cling to the channel. In the 5' draft boat we had, it was great in the shallows, but less comfortable in seas.
Newcomers may not realize that whatever your draft, you likely need double the depth to insure that you don't bump bottom in a trough. When we anchor we are aware of the swells and waves and stay in double our draft, minimum, where possible.
I join the others and say that this discussion will never be over.
Sorry this was so long.

[bronze]

Why not a Foiler ? Currently screaming across the Southern Ocean ?

[AuroraGH]

Originally Posted by Don C L

The correct answer is "My keel is the best."
...
And I too enjoy ignoring kelp beds and lobster pot lines with my long keel.

"Best for what?" is always my question. I bought the boat to fulfill a mission. I cannot recommend a boat without knowing what it is for.

I selected an ocean passage maker with a sea kindly ride in rough weather that would do OK if I ran it aground in strange waters on a falling tide. Full keels handle grounding better, the long keel supports the boat well. The wineglass shape has a smoother ride through rough seas than a shallower flatter hull (hydromatic Cadillac ride I call it), the rudder has good protection, and the Atkinized Cape George is no slouch in the straight line speed department.

I gave up close quarters maneuvering, agility, interior space and a nifty swim platform. The hull is quite slim compared to the beamy boats of today so not a lot of storage but good tankage.

That was my compromise. You have to make your own.

Oh and as to the lobster pot lines...there is a slot between the rudder and the aft end of the keel. I snagged a crab trap line in there but good and required a diver to come out and free the boat. So I'm not immune but have added a "skid" of stainless to cover the slot and ease the line past the slot for future adventures. I also have wacky line cutting gizmo of my own design on a boat hook now just in case.

[skenn_ie]

As a rule of thumb, fin keels move faster, long keels are more comfortable, esp' in heavy weather.

[skenn_ie]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Yes, although one of the negatives is that the same gentle slope allows the keel (and boat) to keep sliding up on top of whatever you've hit. A more vertical keel tends to bring the boat to a rather sudden stop.

... as me how I know .

all hands on deck, literally. Noses might be sore too.