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Old 10-12-2020, 05:18   #1
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Full Keel vs Fin Keel

Hey Guys,

I'm just looking for thoughts on the great modern sailing debate. Old vs New. Traditional vs modern.

Full Keel vs Fin Keel. What are the pros and cons for each?

Is the fin keel the most popular design of todays modern sailboat? Is it safe?
Strong enough for the worst ocean weather?

What are your thoughts?

I came up with a few pros and cons.

Full Keel

Pro

Wont break off
Tracks better
Protects prop
Protects Rudder

Con

Difficult to maneuver
Heavier design


Was keel design a big decision when buying your boat??
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Old 10-12-2020, 05:35   #2
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

This looks a lot like:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...sion-2930.html

as just one hit following a quick search. The topic itself will probably never come to a satisfactory conclusion as the above and numerous other discussions have demonstrated.
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Old 10-12-2020, 05:35   #3
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

A big decision ? , i checked the big thing was there after that !!!
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Old 10-12-2020, 05:49   #4
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

Both keels work, both are different. Fin is seaworthy, full is seaworthy.

Hull shape is more prevalent in comfort than keel type. Generally fun will sail better upwind, full better downwind.

There are exceptions to every generality.
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Old 10-12-2020, 05:54   #5
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeinSdL View Post
This looks a lot like:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...sion-2930.html

as just one hit following a quick search. The topic itself will probably never come to a satisfactory conclusion as the above and numerous other discussions have demonstrated.
Id also like to point out there's lots of YouTube videos on the subject too. As well as buyers guides, boat salesmen opinions, sailing magazine articles, manufacturer texts etc. etc.

I have about 3 books that discuss basic keel design differences and reasoning behind it.

The subject has been beaten to death no doubt, and yet every time I'm at the dock I consistently get the same questions about my keel from very experienced sailors.

Why would you choose that keel?
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Old 10-12-2020, 06:13   #6
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

The keel is one factor in the multi-factor puzzle of choosing a boat. It certainly wasn't the most important consideration for me, but it was on the list.

My boat has a real full keel. Not some semi or partial or cutaway thing; a FULL keel. It's encapsulated, so very strong and safe. It protects the rudder and prop well. It keeps the boat going straight, and resists lateral rolling.

Downsides are that it's a major PITA when it comes to tight maneuvering and docking. It adds to the wetted area, meaning it takes more effort to get her going. Plus, it means a much bigger area to cover with expensive bottom paint.

All in all I would rather have a modified fin with a skeg hung rudder. This, to me, seems like the sweet spot for keels. Good tracking, solid protected design, but still able to maneuver reasonably well.

But as the song goes, You don't always get what you want.
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Old 10-12-2020, 06:23   #7
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by fireman182 View Post
Id also like to point out there's lots of YouTube videos on the subject too. As well as buyers guides, boat salesmen opinions, sailing magazine articles, manufacturer texts etc. etc.

I have about 3 books that discuss basic keel design differences and reasoning behind it.

The subject has been beaten to death no doubt, and yet every time I'm at the dock I consistently get the same questions about my keel from very experienced sailors.

Why would you choose that keel?
This is a subject which is entirely opinion driven, and the opinions are a strongly held and as widely divergent, as say, partisan politics. Some say full keels, some say fin keels. reasons and arguments are endless, no one is right, no one is wrong (unless they claim the other kind of boat (from their preference) are no good. Then they are wrong).

So you are left with deciding what is persuasive to you, it can be anything.

Ourselves, we did not make a "keel" choice. We chose a performance boat, one which we knew would sail superbly, including to windward, and was strongly built, and which had volume inside for living and storage. We chose an older race boat, for that was where we could get all the above, plus plenty of high quality equipment, at a bargain price. It, of course, as all race boats do, came with a fin keel.

We've had this boat 34 years and have done a lot of sailing, and been through a lot. It has been an excellent choice. There was no downside related to the type of keel we have, none.
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Old 10-12-2020, 06:40   #8
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
The keel is one factor in the multi-factor puzzle of choosing a boat. It certainly wasn't the most important consideration for me, but it was on the list.

My boat has a real full keel. Not some semi or partial or cutaway thing; a FULL keel. It's encapsulated, so very strong and safe. It protects the rudder and prop well. It keeps the boat going straight, and resists lateral rolling.

Downsides are that it's a major PITA when it comes to tight maneuvering and docking. It adds to the wetted area, meaning it takes more effort to get her going. Plus, it means a much bigger area to cover with expensive bottom paint.

All in all I would rather have a modified fin with a skeg hung rudder. This, to me, seems like the sweet spot for keels. Good tracking, solid protected design, but still able to maneuver reasonably well.

But as the song goes, You don't always get what you want.
Seems to me that the better solution would be something that doesn't exist.

A "long fin" fixed keel (longer than a fin keel by about 1/3) with a secondary "stability daggerboard" behind the keel that can be lowered when stability is desired. Essentially an "inline dual keel" that can be extended when wanted and retracted to reduce wetted area when not.

It'd be complicated to incorporate into interior design though because to be effective the dagger board would have to be fairly big.
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Old 10-12-2020, 07:44   #9
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

I would mostly agree with wingsail about opinion but I will add that opinion is a result of experience and each person’s experience is different. Where we sail it is either blowing 25knt plus or nothing, we generally end up sailing downwind in steep waves; in our experience a full keel was in order (after a few fins). If we spent our lives in the tropics sailing trade winds, I don’t doubt we would be with a performance oriented cruiser (or god forbid a cat lol) as well. Not saying a fin keel can’t handle weather but definitely more comfortable for the conditions we normally sail. That said I will also argue that full keelers aren’t all giant slugs that can’t point past a beam reach like most performance oriented sailors will tell you, as mentioned above it’s not just about the type of keel, as hull shape, rig and sails also play major rolls as well. Look at the whole boat not just the type of keel.
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Old 10-12-2020, 07:48   #10
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

Fin, but by fin I don’t mean a thin deep razor blade attached to a bulb, go look at say a Amel

Though nothing wrong with a full keel, but left to my own devices I’d go fin with a skeg mounted rudder and a design that also protects the prop.
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Old 10-12-2020, 07:57   #11
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pirate Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by fireman182 View Post

The subject has been beaten to death no doubt, and yet every time I'm at the dock I consistently get the same questions about my keel from very experienced sailors.

Why would you choose that keel?
Funny enough I have never been asked anything about my boats keel..
Things I have been asked however are.. "Your not seriously thinking of taking a Hunter across the Atlantic.???" or.. "WTF are you doing in the middle of the Biscay in a 20ft boat.???" or.. “You crossed the Bicay in December in That.. are you mad.???"
But never "What keel does she have.??? “
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Old 10-12-2020, 08:03   #12
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by fireman182 View Post
Hey Guys,

I'm just looking for thoughts on the great modern sailing debate. Old vs New. Traditional vs modern.

Full Keel vs Fin Keel. What are the pros and cons for each?

Is the fin keel the most popular design of todays modern sailboat? Is it safe?
Strong enough for the worst ocean weather?

What are your thoughts?

I came up with a few pros and cons.

Full Keel

Pro

Wont break off
Tracks better
Protects prop
Protects Rudder

Con

Difficult to maneuver
Heavier design

Was keel design a big decision when buying your boat??

You pretty much got it. Except one important aspect: Full (or long fin) keel -- slow; Fin (especially bulb) -- fast.


Full and even long fin keel sailboats went almost extinct about 30 years ago, so you will find them hard to find unless you are looking at really old boats (or Island Packets, or Rustlers).


If you like to sail, but you are cruising rather than racing, then if you are like 90% of people, you will prefer a moderate fin keel, preferably with a bulb. Plenty strong enough, much faster, much better maneuvering in reverse. But there are a certain number of people who just love full keep boats, so by all means, if you are full-keel-curious, do some sailing on some full keel boats and make up your own mind.



A couple of people have stated that full keel boats work better downwind. That is not my experience. My previous boat was a long fin keel, and it was a pig on every point of sail compared to my present, bulb keel boat. Full/long keel boats have more wetted surface, which causes drag on all points of sail.



Full/long keel boats are comfortable for their size, but you can make up for that by going just a bit longer in a fin keel boat. Take the same weight and spread it out over a longer boat, and you will get a better result -- faster, AND more seaworthy.
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Old 10-12-2020, 08:20   #13
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

I mean this is a never ending argument, but there's no evidence that a fin keel (especially a deep bulb keel) is "more seaworthy" than a full keel.

Faster? Yes.

More maneuverable? Yes.

But seaworthiness entails much more than just what boat goes the fastest and how well you can pick your way around a tight anchorage.

Needless to say there are also fin keel boats that are truly dogs, and full keel boats with surprising performance.

Its literally all compromises, and some will be happy with a full keel while others will only be satisfied with a deep bulb. Some will choose Alubat type swing keels, and others will choose the stable beam of a catamaran.

But let's not go around pretending one design is the end all, be all in seaworthiness.
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Old 10-12-2020, 08:48   #14
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Funny enough I have never been asked anything about my boats keel..
Things I have been asked however are.. "Your not seriously thinking of taking a Hunter across the Atlantic.???" or.. "WTF are you doing in the middle of the Biscay in a 20ft boat.???" or.. “You crossed the Bicay in December in That.. are you mad.???"
But never "What keel does she have.??? “
Our boats are lifted 50 feet into the air by a giant crane twice a year.

The club members who work the slings under the boat have to know where the keel is and what type it is. Especially on a full keel because of the potential to slip as keel moves forward.

We're talking 30 feet + boats

Oddly enough, I often get asked if I'm going to cross the Atlantic BECAUSE I have a Westsail with a full keel
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Old 10-12-2020, 08:54   #15
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
This is a subject which is entirely opinion driven, and the opinions are a strongly held and as widely divergent, as say, partisan politics. Some say full keels, some say fin keels. reasons and arguments are endless, no one is right, no one is wrong (unless they claim the other kind of boat (from their preference) are no good. Then they are wrong).

So you are left with deciding what is persuasive to you, it can be anything.

Ourselves, we did not make a "keel" choice. We chose a performance boat, one which we knew would sail superbly, including to windward, and was strongly built, and which had volume inside for living and storage. We chose an older race boat, for that was where we could get all the above, plus plenty of high quality equipment, at a bargain price. It, of course, as all race boats do, came with a fin keel.

We've had this boat 34 years and have done a lot of sailing, and been through a lot. It has been an excellent choice. There was no downside related to the type of keel we have, none.
I do agree it is very opinion driven, but there is some science behind keels.

Like you said all race boats are fin keel. There is science behind that. They are lighter construction, less material and built for speed. This isnt by accident. They have chosen to prioritize the keel over other aspects of boat design.

The compromise is somewhere.

We can look safety as far as fin vs Full.

I don't have the stats but I'd like to find them. The big question I Have is how many full keel sailboats have suffered a catastrophic keel failure over fin keel boats?

What boat do you have and what keel type?
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