Fiberglass hull life? Is a leaking hull a No-No?

[andrei_ca]

Anybody has any idea how long a fiberglass hull can last? If I buy it 30-40 years old, what can be expected broadly speaking? I know there is a way to inspect for blemishes that indicate delamination. If the hull looks like it's in good shape, can it hold for many more years/decades?

What if there are delaminations/ issues with the glass work, and I patch it up? Would that weaken the structure a lot? From surfing I know my sleds were still going, I imagine it's the same?

If I find a boat that appears to be leaking should I avoid that at all cost? Not sure how to put this exactly. Does water leaks damage the fiberglass structure itself (I know it's a disaster for wood and whatnot).


Andrei

[Don C L]

My 55 year old boat still has no leaks from above or below. I have yet to hear of old fiberglass boats leaking for the reason you are saying, for just age. One advantage to the 60s boats is they used good materials and used lots of it, which was not always the case for boats built in the 70s. Blisters are usually found in the boats from the 70s. On my deck the gelcoat is pretty cracked and crazed under the paint in places, but that is superficial. Soon I'll deal with that cosmetic issue. But even on boats that oil can (when they flex when being hit by a wave) I have not heard of leaks in those areas. Now, hull to deck joints, yes. Around chainplates, yes, but just straight through fiberglass, no.

[zeehag]

the 2 inch thick hand laid fg in my 1976 formosa does not weep. does not blister, either.
blisters from 1973 onward are possible with usa construction thanks to epa changing regulations on content and methods of layup. 1980s for others.
that put many usa manufacturing companies out of business. oopsy.
sprayed on gelcoat and choppergun techniques did a number on reputations as those blister and fail.
i was standing next to a uniflite motor yacht in mdr when i heard a pop pop pop sound--couldnot tell from where that sound was emanating-- i had to look very closely to see that the topsides were popping out in acne of blisters.. was impressive.

[GTom]

I am also considering older boats ('70s, '80s) - they seem to be better value and definitely more seaworthyness than the modern plastic wonders. Just looking the financials, I highly doubt that a full revival of a ~40k$ 40'-er would cost 200k$ to match the price of a modern Bene/Jeanneau/even "cheap" Bavaria.

I recall I saw a thread here discussing, that fiberglass from a certain era is problematic. Which exact decade(s) should we avoid? Is only blistering that we should be wary? How does a typical 2016, 2006, 1996 and 1986 resign compare?

Originally Posted by zeehag

the 2 inch thick hand laid fg in my 1976 formosa does not weep. does not blister, either.
blisters from 1973 onward are possible with usa construction thanks to epa changing regulations on content and methods of layup. 1980s for others.
that put many usa manufacturing companies out of business. oopsy.
sprayed on gelcoat and choppergun techniques did a number on reputations as those blister and fail.
i was standing next to a uniflite motor yacht in mdr when i heard a pop pop pop sound--couldnot tell from where that sound was emanating-- i had to look very closely to see that the topsides were popping out in acne of blisters.. was impressive.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by GTom

I am also considering older boats ('70s, '80s) - they seem to be better value and definitely more seaworthyness than the modern plastic wonders. Just looking the financials, I highly doubt that a full revival of a ~40k$ 40'-er would cost 200k$ to match the price of a modern Bene/Jeanneau/even "cheap" Bavaria.

I recall I saw a thread here discussing, that fiberglass from a certain era is problematic. Which exact decade(s) should we avoid? Is only blistering that we should be wary? How does a typical 2016, 2006, 1996 and 1986 resign compare?

Gtom, when I read a post like this it makes me wonder if the poster truly understands how much, how many systems etc go into making up a boat? A yacht is so much more than a hull. The time and money that can be poured into an old boat that will never be new again. Ive seen 250k and two years poured into a boat and at in the end it was still an old boat with older engines and tanks etc.
Then theres the definition of seaworthy? Its been discussed so many times before with out a satisfactory definition coming forward.
I cant afford an old boat both financially and time wise. There are old boats I like but I would need to find one that someone had dropped years into and alot of money , and then it would still need to be at not much more than a old boat price.

[GTom]

Well, I can't afford loosing keel or an unprotected rudder of a "modern design" and can't be bothered with internals falling apart (ceiling just fell off on a friends brand new Bavaria...). Yepp, there are great modern boats around - double the cost of a Bene/Bav, they are definitely beyond my sailing budget.

Speaking of engine: am I missing something that ~10k gets you a new one? Where is that to the price of a Bene 41.1?

Speaking of trouble/time lost, I hear about many in case of new boats too...

True, once all refit is done, you have an old boat, not a floating luxury appartment - I can live with that .

Originally Posted by daletournier

Gtom, when I read a post like this it makes me wonder if the poster truly understands how much, how many systems etc go into making up a boat? A yacht is so much more than a hull. The time and money that can be poured into an old boat that will never be new again. Ive seen 250k and two years poured into a boat and at in the end it was still an old boat with older engines and tanks etc.
Then theres the definition of seaworthy? Its been discussed so many times before with out a satisfactory definition coming forward.
I cant afford an old boat both financially and time wise. There are old boats I like but I would need to find one that someone had dropped years into and alot of money , and then it would still need to be at not much more than a old boat price.

[Paul L]

As Dale notes your math is faulty. One way to look at costs is to take the initial purchase cost + refit cost - resale price = net expense. Take an old boat as an example and you might have: $40k + $60k - $45k = $55k net loss.
Or a newer already fixed up boat:
$150k + $20k - $140k = $30k net loss.
Just made up examples for you to think about.

[zeehag]

i find it amusing that so many are so very willing to overspend in renovation and refitting of older boats.
i bought my formosa 41 for precisely 4650 usd.
i have rebuilt engine for UNDER the various quotes that you inssist are minimum and i have a 3 to 4 yr plan for refit that includes much replacement and change. my estimatjon of my multisystem refit is well under 20,000 usd including mizzenmast of aluminum, new perota/huanacaxtle mainboom spreaders and sprit,redone galley, redone mizzenstep among other necessary systems replacements.... total UNDER 20k usd.
y'all NEED to do better shopping.
my 40 yr old boat will be a total of no more than 25,000 USD total to me after counting initial price and all renovations repairs and replacements.

[GTom]

Originally Posted by Paul L

As Dale notes your math is faulty. One way to look at costs is to take the initial purchase cost + refit cost - resale price = net expense. Take an old boat as an example and you might have: $40k + $60k - $45k = $55k net loss.
Or a newer already fixed up boat:
$150k + $20k - $140k = $30k net loss.
Just made up examples for you to think about.

And how much do you loose on capital costs of that additional 100k$? How much more does it cost to insure that more expensive boat if you do longer passages too?

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by zeehag

i find it amusing that so many are so very willing to overspend in renovation and refitting of older boats.
i bought my formosa 41 for precisely 4650 usd.
i have rebuilt engine for UNDER the various quotes that you inssist are minimum and i have a 3 to 4 yr plan for refit that includes much replacement and change. my estimatjon of my multisystem refit is well under 20,000 usd including mizzenmast of aluminum, new perota/huanacaxtle mainboom spreaders and sprit,redone galley, redone mizzenstep among other necessary systems replacements.... total UNDER 20k usd.
y'all NEED to do better shopping.
my 40 yr old boat will be a total of no more than 25,000 USD total to me after counting initial price and all renovations repairs and replacements.

To each their own. Not everyone wants to spend 5 years in a Mexican marina rebuilding their boat on the cheap. Some want to make crossings and sail far. It is really just a life style choice.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by zeehag

i find it amusing that so many are so very willing to overspend in renovation and refitting of older boats.
i bought my formosa 41 for precisely 4650 usd.
i have rebuilt engine for UNDER the various quotes that you inssist are minimum and i have a 3 to 4 yr plan for refit that includes much replacement and change. my estimatjon of my multisystem refit is well under 20,000 usd including mizzenmast of aluminum, new perota/huanacaxtle mainboom spreaders and sprit,redone galley, redone mizzenstep among other necessary systems replacements.... total UNDER 20k usd.
y'all NEED to do better shopping.
my 40 yr old boat will be a total of no more than 25,000 USD total to me after counting initial price and all renovations repairs and replacements.

Your overspend and my overspend probably differ. Individuals expectations, desires and standards also vary. I don't have a problem with old boats, ive had them. But imo the dream of purchasing an old boat and getting to the same standard as a much newer boat while spending little money is a fantasy.

Now if someone wants to go down the track of rebuilding an old boat because he/she wants the experience or enjoys the renovations, then absolutely! But trying to convince me thats there's better value in the project or that a 40 year old boat is more seaworthy......sorry not a believer.

In regards to the keel falling of argument?......bar stool talk and statistics are two totally different things, id be more concerned about old through hulls, hose connections, electrical fires, chain plates, rudder hinges etc etc, when people refit /rebuild these old boats not everything is replaced, not even close, most of the boat will still be 40 years old.

Also in regards to old boat lay ups, heaps of resin and thick hulls layed up in Tawain dosent guarantee a great hull, it guarantees a heavy hull and often blisters that were built in.
Of course this is the world according to me, I respect your views may differ, and that's ok.

[GTom]

One of my reasons to go "old": http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...io-114288.html

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by GTom

One of my reasons to go "old": http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...io-114288.html

Is motoring a higher % of the time than a modern cruiser more comfortable?

[Glenn.Brooks]

Ahoy Andrei,

A lot of arm chair chatter here, with very few answers to your questions.

Specifically, you asked about how old fiberglass boats can last. many of the earliest FG hulls from the 1950's and '60's are still going strong. So far there does not seem to be a "do not use by" date for fiberglass sailboats. Some classes of boat, such as the Alberg 30, first built in the early 1960's are still being actively sailed around the world. Four have circumnavigated singlehanded. All (the vessels) were 30 to 50 years old during the voyages. For example, I finished refitting my 1968 Alberg 30 about five years ago. The new owner is now anchored in Hong Kong Harbor, having sailed 10,000 NM from Seattle, across the So. pacific in the last three years. He reports to problems at all with the boat. And no leaks, thanks to Dolphinite bedding compound! Some owners are saying they expect their boats to last 100 years with no deterioration of the fiberglass hull and decks. Not unreasonable considering most of these boats are now pushing 60 years old, with no issues.

Also you asked about leaks in FG boats. Leaks can occur in a variety of places. The usual suspects are poorly bedded deck fittings, deck to hull joints, and cabin window/port frames. Synthetic bedding compounds, particularily silicon, boatlife caulk, and 5200 are prone to failure after years of service, so they break seal and leak. Balsa core decks and hulls also can absorb water, rot out, and leak through the FG Skins. These repairs are not technically difficult to accomplish, should you decide to take on an old boat. But they do require some effort and time. A horrible thought to some boat owners. Others just go ahead and do it as part of routine annual maintenance.

Pre 1980's FG vessels seem a lot less prone to osmosis and hull blistering.

Occasionally, Long term water exposure into the 'end grain" of fiberglass - the edge where you can see built up laminations of mat and roving - sometimes results in deep separation of the layers - particularily if exposed to a repeated freeze thaw cycle over several winters, or when the FG sheet material wasn't adequately wetted out, leaving voids in the lay up that fill with water.

I don't want to comment on the debate about refitting old boats, versus what passes for yacht joinery in new production boats. Every new yacht out there is gonna need new sails, rigging, electronics, paint, and varnish refitting several times in its lifespan. You have to choose what suits your pocketbook and more importantly, your personal interests. You certainly don't need air conditioning, a water maker, freezer, mast furling systems and all round Dolby sound systems to cross an ocean. However, some people can't leave the dock for a weekend sail without all this stuff functioning correctly. It's all about what is important to you.

Have fun exploring plastic classics - or even wood boats. If you find these vessels fascinating, you will indeed enter a special part of the seafaring world.

Glenn

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by GTom

One of my reasons to go "old": http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...io-114288.html

As Brewer said

. This is a ratio that I dreamed up, tongue-in-cheek, as a measure of motion comfort but it has been widely accepted and, indeed, does provide a reasonable comparison between yachts of similar type

Even if the ratio is meaningful (which I don't see in comparing boats I,'ve cruised offshore) it is not meaningful when comparing yachts of a different type - meaning that comparing an old CCA design to a modern design with this ratio is meaningless.