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Old 21-10-2018, 07:57   #1
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Adding TBT to bottom paint

How does one mix pure TBT with bottom paint.. I know not to mix it with paint containing another metal.. Would you add it to an ablative or hard paint or hard paint first coat and then ablative? How much would you add to a gallon? What i have is close to pure TBT.. I am stationed in Africa where TBT in paint is legal. You can even buy tbt in some hardware stores here.. Mold control etc.. I know tbt is nasty stuff. I will not be able to haul out for several years and have a wood boat is the reason I am interested.. And the boat is 80ft+..
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Old 21-10-2018, 08:28   #2
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Re: Adding TBT to bottom paint

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How does one mix pure TBT with bottom paint.. I know not to mix it with paint containing another metal.. Would you add it to an ablative or hard paint or hard paint first coat and then ablative? How much would you add to a gallon? What i have is close to pure TBT.. I am stationed in Africa where TBT in paint is legal. You can even buy tbt in some hardware stores here.. Mold control etc.. I know tbt is nasty stuff. I will not be able to haul out for several years and have a wood boat is the reason I am interested.. And the boat is 80ft+..
Paint formulation is a science, not home chemistry. You can't just take some TBT and toss it into a random paint and have things work. Paint is not make with just pure TBT, but with Tributyl Tin Methacrylate added so some of the tin is chemically "bound" into the film. Also, most tin paints also have a LOT of copper in them. Seriously, home brew is really not an option likely to work.

Is there anyway you can buy Seahawk's TBT based paint (Islander 44 PLUS)? Or maybe something from a yard servicing large ships?
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Old 21-10-2018, 08:55   #3
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Re: Adding TBT to bottom paint

Paging Hellosailor for the fireworks....
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Old 21-10-2018, 09:17   #4
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Re: Adding TBT to bottom paint

Oh, the days when we slopped gallons of ‘Red Lead’ paint on the bottoms of old seiners in the PNW!
I’m still alive to tell the tale at 77 years old!
Me thinks that this was all a lie to help the manufacturers of new bottom paint products to get a foothold in a lucrative market!
As I recall, we lived on weiners and boiled potatoes until the fishing season opened but they were good years!
Anyone remember the sockeye runs in Rivers Inlet back in the 50’s? We would catch over 5000 fish in one set... I think we got 27 cents a pound!
Those were the days, my friends, I thought they’d never end...
Boy, was I wrong!
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Old 21-10-2018, 11:14   #5
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Re: Adding TBT to bottom paint

Aside from fact that TBT is, what it is.
I agree that just tossing some in with regular bottom paint has a very low chance of succeeding, and may of course cause the paint to not even adhere, meaning a re haul and strip, of very potent pesticide.
Best if you want to use TBT and it’s legal to do so in that area to buy a paint that has it incorporated in it.
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Old 21-10-2018, 13:47   #6
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Re: Adding TBT to bottom paint

Just got the page. Don't understand why there should be any fireworks.

As a64 said, if someone wants TBT paint, just buy it.

Or, start up a bottom paint company to formulate the world's finest and cheapest paints, if you think that can be done effectively, and then get rich by selling them to everyone else.

Heck, maybe I could start buddy-boat rally cruises to Trinidad, with a one-week layover and haul and fresh TBT bottom paint application included in the price. Yeah, it's toxic. But if you really care about water quality, you'll skip all the bottom paint and dry haul the boat every evening (and instead of mooring or docking) as well.
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Old 21-10-2018, 17:20   #7
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Re: Adding TBT to bottom paint

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Originally Posted by sidsail View Post
How does one mix pure TBT with bottom paint..
General rule for a cruiser is to add the TBT to an ablative copolymer paint. The crucial part being the amount you add.

And the key to that is to aim for your TBT additive to be only 3 - 5% of the paint.

If you exceed 10%, the additive will disturb the chemistry and physics of the paint for sure.

The 3 - 5 % zone is what works. Stir very well.

On the larger question, it's all about trade-offs. Add a little TBT and you'll definitely have a cleaner hull. That means less consumption of antifouling paint (big carbon footprint to make and distribute it around the planet), less fouling so more efficient motoring and sailing; less hauling and scraping (smaller environmental footprint of toxic antifouling paint residue).

The sad thing about the bans on TBT was that the TBT antifouling paint companies had just about got the content of TBT to the optimum point (not much effect on the local biota including oysters etc, just the right antifouling effect for TBT paint to be the perfect paint for cargo ships) when governments gave into pressure and banned TBT.
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Old 21-10-2018, 17:25   #8
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Re: Adding TBT to bottom paint

So, how do you determine the proper amount to add to a gallon of copper ablative bottom paint? As I’m in Mexico, and I have to clean my bottom every 11 days, I’m interested!
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Old 21-10-2018, 18:21   #9
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Re: Adding TBT to bottom paint

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Just got the page. Don't understand why there should be any fireworks.

As a64 said, if someone wants TBT paint, just buy it.

Or, start up a bottom paint company to formulate the world's finest and cheapest paints, if you think that can be done effectively, and then get rich by selling them to everyone else.

Heck, maybe I could start buddy-boat rally cruises to Trinidad, with a one-week layover and haul and fresh TBT bottom paint application included in the price. Yeah, it's toxic. But if you really care about water quality, you'll skip all the bottom paint and dry haul the boat every evening (and instead of mooring or docking) as well.

Hellosailor, I'm sorry, I meant fstbttms for the fireworks.
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Old 21-10-2018, 19:05   #10
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Re: Adding TBT to bottom paint

He has a point though, it’s sort of like finding out your neighbor is spraying DDT for mosquitos.
DDT is still in use in many parts of the world believe it or not.
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Old 22-10-2018, 09:10   #11
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Re: Adding TBT to bottom paint

Well if I remember rightly TBT was causing mutations in the food chain. So no problem for you but the children downstream eating the fish.....Well who cares anyway.
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Old 22-10-2018, 09:20   #12
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Re: Adding TBT to bottom paint

I did a search for " DDT return " and got a bunch of interesting reads.


According to some, the book "Silent Spring" falsified results and it got political really quickly.
The reads show a very similar history to the sudden rise in NDZ's in the USA. Emotions, not facts.


Here's just one:


https://21sci-tech.com/articles/summ02/DDT.html
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Old 22-10-2018, 09:27   #13
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Re: Adding TBT to bottom paint

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Well if I remember rightly TBT was causing mutations in the food chain. So no problem for you but the children downstream eating the fish.....Well who cares anyway.
No, you do not remember correctly.

TBT is very, very, very toxic to invertebrates, with is kind of the point of an antifouling paint. A good bottom paint ingredient is very toxic to invertebrates, and has much lower toxicity to mammals (like us). TBT does fit that profile. It is not highly toxic to mammals.

The real environmental issue is in crowded harbors, where enough TBT can leech off the boats to seriously impact the local population of benthic animals, especially clams, mussels and oysters.

The issue and argument, is how "local" an impact (if any?) is tolerable?

Even if you think that TBT is a suitable antifoulant that has come in for a bad name, you should be horrified by the suggestion of adding it to an ablative paint. That is SUCH a bad idea for the local environment. TBT's real benefit was its very low solubility, it tended to stay on the boat. An ablative paint would slough it off and it would fall to the bottom where nobody wants it.
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Old 22-10-2018, 10:17   #14
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Adding TBT to bottom paint

Quote:
Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
I did a search for " DDT return " and got a bunch of interesting reads.


According to some, the book "Silent Spring" falsified results and it got political really quickly.
The reads show a very similar history to the sudden rise in NDZ's in the USA. Emotions, not facts.


Here's just one:


https://21sci-tech.com/articles/summ02/DDT.html


China, India, and North Korea still manufacture and use DDT.
China I think sells it to Africa.
I have studied Malaria at least a little, and am certain that I could pretty much wipe it out on the Continent of Africa with a dozen Ag aircraft.
I tried getting General Electric interested in this as I certified the first aircraft to use their new turboprop engine, and assumed about the best possible possible Press for GE would be “GE aircraft save millions of babies a year” Better than imagination at work anyway.
But I couldn’t get any traction.

You see in spraying for “bugs” an extremely low volume of spray is needed as the bug will be just as dead if it is hit with a microscopic drop, or drowned in pesticide, also an extremely wide swath can be used as your not concerned with drift or off target application.

In the Kingdom of Morocco our aircraft have been used for decades to stop the locust plagues that come out of the Sahara, nothing can eradicate an insect plague like an aircraft can.
The walking though the villages and hand spraying the houses and passing out mosquito nets just can’t have much of an effect.
Just two of our aircraft keep the Cayman Islands mosquito population in check, one could do it, but a spare is a good idea.

GE never displayed any interest, which astonished me.
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Old 22-10-2018, 10:27   #15
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Re: Adding TBT to bottom paint

Ditto on the fstbttms.
I don't think tbt bottom paints and spraying DDT is a good comparison. Bottom paints are designed to keep a limited surface clean of growth. Sprayed insecticides penetrate entire ecosystems.
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