Why hybrid?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Adelie

My expectation for cruising boats when liquid fuels become a lot more expensive is it that almost all cruising boats will be sailboats and owners with significant money will use hybrid propulsion (ICE-drive & electric-drive with moderate sized battery bank) and those doing it on the cheap will have full EP (larger battery bank electric-drive only) maybe with a moderate sized outboard or suitcase genset.

Problem is on a displacement sailboat, hybrid is less efficient that straight diesel, so if it gets to the point where diesel is too expensive, you will likely see a switch to pure Battery EV with people accepting all the limitations that come with it.

Of course with the slow cruising speeds of Battery EV, simply slowing down with the diesel will achieve 80-90% of the fuel savings, so long as you open her up to burn off the carbon for a few minutes every 4th or 5th travel day, no harm to the motor running at low speed.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by pete c

Why in the hell do you have a boat with sails?

Simple: It's the most efficient motoring platform easily available.

We used to joke that we are a motorboat with a really tall radio antenna. Sure we would sail when conditions were favorable but no we had no intention of turning a 30 mile travel day into a 14hr slog.

Seriously looking for a small catamaran that's lost it's rig. They make great motoring platforms.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Might want to go down and watch on the ICW some time. 90%+ of sailboats are motoring. I'm sure you will simply say they aren't sailors but putting your head in the sand regarding reality doesn't change it.

From our experience, that's pretty typical if you are doing more than just going out for a day sail (as noted up thread, ocean crossing round the world type sailors are an infinitesimal part of the market).

You might want to go down to a place like Harwich in the weekends and see sailors tacking their boats up and down rivers into the North Sea and back.

What you do on the ICW has nothing to do with sailing and it seems you admit that the posts above. Yes there are boats designed for you, they are called powercats.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

You might want to go down to a place like Harwich in the weekends and see sailors tacking their boats up and down rivers into the North Sea and back.

What you do on the ICW has nothing to do with sailing and it seems you admit that the posts above. Yes there are boats designed for you, they are called powercats.

Day sailors sure but they pick a course based on wind not destination. Motoring propulsion and the ability to reduce fuel consumption is all but irrelevant when going out for a day sail.

I've spent enough time around European harbors...The ones actually headed somewhere will typically crank up the engine if the wind isn't conducive to getting to their destination.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Day sailors sure but they pick a course based on wind not destination. Motoring propulsion and the ability to reduce fuel consumption is all but irrelevant when going out for a day sail.

I've spent enough time around European harbors...The ones actually headed somewhere will typically crank up the engine if the wind isn't conducive to getting to their destination.

The word I used was “tacking”. Look it up, they don’t “pick a course” on those fast current rivers.

I guess you live on the fast lane, appointments-filled agenda, non cooperating weather, have to make it in time etc. Sailing isn’t for everyone but one thing I can tell you for sure: the offshore passage makers are not motoring like you state, they sail. I know, I’ve been doing it all my life and see sailors like me everywhere… just not on the ICW

[Adelie]

QUOTE=pete c;3701291]….
IMO, straight e-drive is the future for sailboats. An exception being the ICW sailors!

But to those folks I have one question.

Why in the hell do you have a boat with sails?

…..[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Simple: It's the most efficient motoring platform easily available.


…...

Yep, they are the most efficient motoring platforms.

Because sails are such low power sources of drive most of the time designers optimize for that at the expense of things like cabin volume. The not most of the time part is in high winds when sailboats that can surf will outrun many motor vessels 1.5x as long.

With a monohull, you wouldn’t want to remove the mast to make a power cruiser, the motion in waves would be insufferable.

Removing the mast of a cat seems more tenable.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Day sailors sure but they pick a course based on wind not destination. Motoring propulsion and the ability to reduce fuel consumption is all but irrelevant when going out for a day sail.

I've spent enough time around European harbors...The ones actually headed somewhere will typically crank up the engine if the wind isn't conducive to getting to their destination.

On a typical day (light to moderate winds) the wind will rarely seem conducive. The skipper motors out of the marina, points to his destination and cranks up the motor to cruising speed. Amazingly the windex points towards the bow (apparent wind) and the skipper complains, "The wind is on the nose, we can't sail."

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by wingssail

On a typical day (light to moderate winds) the wind will rarely seem conducive. The skipper motors out of the marina, points to his destination and cranks up the motor to cruising speed. Amazingly the windex points towards the bow (apparent wind) and the skipper complains, "The wind is on the nose, we can't sail."

This is true and if they would be using an environment friendly electric drive and large solar arrays but no, it’s diesel. But still want to call that sailing on a cruisers forum

There’s still some room for sailors in the US, but the ICW isn’t part of it. If you try to sail among the cigarette boats with tattooed crew, some of them even have the audacity to point to their foreheads Many claim sailing isn’t allowed there etc.

Just a daysail away in the Bahamas it’s changed drastically and the powerboats seem to do great among the majority of sailboats, most of which actually sail. I guess time schedules only allow for a quicky down the ICW, which works for me

[ChrisJHC]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

…some of them even have the audacity to point to their foreheads…

Not sure what that means!

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Joli

Sorry you're upset Dirk. Just reporting what's going on.

https://balkangreenenergynews.com/wi...s%20the%20mine.

OK, 8 smaller 20yr old turbines (8-24MW of production) that are about 5yr from being retired are being removed.
Yeah that decreases the amount of renewable electricity available but it will help fuel a 200-2,000MW coal fired plant.

Removing a small number of turbines is a measure being used in one place to deal with a short term issue. This isn’t happening all over Germany as you implied.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by ChrisJHC

Not sure what that means!

Gun to head threat is what comes to mind.

[Joli]

I've gotta believe there are very very few passage makers that haven't had to motor extended distances at times. We sail about 7,000 miles a year. Of that 7,000 miles about 1400 are motoring. Those motoring miles are generally done in chunks where we might motor for a day and a half. I wouldn't want an electric motor for passaging. I probably would not want a hybrid if the engine isn't large enough to motor the boat strongly and efficiently for hours.

So we're right where we started. An appropriate diesel with one or two alternators to charge a cruising size bank of batteries.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by ChrisJHC

Not sure what that means!

Originally Posted by Adelie

Gun to head threat is what comes to mind.

Cultural differences in hand signals For me it is a cuckoo sign, equal to this one being the widely known one in North America.

Cuckoo sign, touched or screw loose. In North America, making a circling motion of the index finger at the ear or temple signifies that the person "has a screw loose", i.e. is speaking nonsense or is crazy.

[anotherT34C]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this use case, but the Beta 50 hybrid would be attractive to me primarily to have the electric motor as a reliable backup to the mechanical diesel.

There are also times where it would be 'nice' to have a quick and quiet 'power assist' while pinching through a bridge, in a channel, or just around some traffic.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Joli

I've gotta believe there are very very few passage makers that haven't had to motor extended distances at times. We sail about 7,000 miles a year. Of that 7,000 miles about 1400 are motoring. Those motoring miles are generally done in chunks where we might motor for a day and a half. I wouldn't want an electric motor for passaging. I probably would not want a hybrid if the engine isn't large enough to motor the boat strongly and efficiently for hours.



So we're right where we started. An appropriate diesel with one or two alternators to charge a cruising size bank of batteries.

Preferred to motor for long periods, sure. Only a few probably had to, the only reasons I can see for actual need are injury, damage to the rig or did not provision properly and are running out of food.

If you have the engine, the fuel, the money for it and the preference that’s fine.

But don’t conflate personal preference with a actual need.

In a good hybrid design the ICE would be able to propel the boat just badly to hull speed in flat water, so throttled a little to cruising RPMs the boat would make about 75% of hull speed. This would put the motor at the optimum rpm for efficiency and longevity.
Full throttle would maintain that 75% against moderate wind and waves but would need an electric boost in heavier winds or waves which would only work as long as the battery lasted.

Of course in heavier winds a reefed main and a staysail would be to optimum way to go to windward, not a motor.