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Old 26-10-2022, 14:19   #31
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Re: Why hybrid?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Your math is impressive, but I still don’t get it. As I see it, when he is using 18hp to go 6 knots, while I also use 18hp to go 6 knots, then it means he is powering to close to hull speed because his cruising speed shouldn’t require what, 10hp?
Jedi, what’s your fuel usage at 6kt?

Let’s assume you use the same power to go 6kt as the OP does and they have a 35’ boat let’s say.

Your boat is much longer so it has more skin friction but less wave-making drag when going the same speed as the OP’s boat. And 6kt is about where the boats are even on total drag (skin friction + wave making drag).
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Old 26-10-2022, 14:21   #32
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Re: Why hybrid?

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
OP indicates 1gal/hr at 6kt using 80% of power.

Diesels provide about 18hp-hr/gal so they are probably using about 18hp at 6kt.
I’m betting they are not at 80% power but at 80% rpm which is probably about 60-70% power. That means the engine is in the 30-40hp range not 75hp.
Good point. This is what Jedi was getting at and it went over my head. Turbos are more efficient than 18 HP-gal/hr but not enough so to come close to 80% of 80 HP.
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Old 26-10-2022, 14:24   #33
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Re: Why hybrid?

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Jedi, what’s your fuel usage at 6kt?

Let’s assume you use the same power to go 6kt as the OP does and they have a 35’ boat let’s say.

Your boat is much longer so it has more skin friction but less wave-making drag when going the same speed as the OP’s boat. And 6kt is about where the boats are even on total drag (skin friction + wave making drag).
I never measured fuel rate… but I tested pushing the boat with my dinghy with 20hp and don’t need full throttle for 6 knots.

With less friction, he must be too close to hull speed I think. Or it was exaggerated numbers.
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Old 26-10-2022, 14:59   #34
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Re: Why hybrid?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I never measured fuel rate… but I tested pushing the boat with my dinghy with 20hp and don’t need full throttle for 6 knots.

With less friction, he must be too close to hull speed I think. Or it was exaggerated numbers.
I have measured my fuel rates and I have a comprehensive table showing RPM-Speed-Gal/hr etc

At 6 knots (2200RPM) I am burning .67 gal/Hr which equates to 12HP

The HP/Torque curves for my engine show slightly higher HP than that, and somewhat more consumption, meaning that highly loaded it would consume more fuel and deliver more HP. Most of our sailboats do not load the engines much to maintain cruising speed.
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Old 26-10-2022, 15:05   #35
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Re: Why hybrid?

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Can you give us some more definitive information on this?

The reason I ask is that prop slippage works against you when you trying to use regen.

Example: While motoring you may absorb 20HP (15Kw) turning a propeller at a theoretical non-slippage rate of 12 knots but due to slippage the boat only goes 6kts (50% slippage)

However: sailing at 6kts in regen mode the propeller turns as if you are going 3kts, (that 50% slippage) and produces less than 7Kw, probably much less because the propeller is not working at its efficient rpm.

If you could turn a large diameter propeller at a slow speed it might be more efficient, or a moderate diameter propeller with very flat blades (low pitch so it turns fast), you might improve the situation, but neither would be practical for powering a normal boat.

Regen is, in my view, primarily a marketing argument.
OceanVolt’s updated system doubled output and started producing at a lower speed thru 2 means:
A. Symmetrical blade shape that is both forward and aft faces are convex. This sacrifices propulsive efficiency somewhat for vastly better regen.
B. Controllable Pitch Propeller (CPP) which makes up for the symmetrical blades when propelling the boat except at full power and it improves regen by matching blade pitch to boat speed.

OV’s system is new so it’s expensive and they put various electrical bits down in the pod of the sail drive so it’s bound to have maintenance issues.

There are various CPP manufacturers in Europe. At some point somebody will marry a BetaMarine hybrid drive to a CPP and the result will be significantly better regen compared to the current system at significantly less cost than the OV product.
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Old 26-10-2022, 15:08   #36
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Re: Why hybrid?

12 parallel hybrids of our sistership have been sold so far. Talking to the new buyers, none are doing it for economical reasons - the upgrade is over 10% added to the cost of the boat - half are doing it for environmental reasons, and the others are doing it because they are interested in the tech. Secondary reasons are no engine noise, or replacing the need of a separate genset with the hybrid for house loads.

Regen numbers on the first test were 180w at 6knts, 370w at 7knts, 580w at 8knts, and just under 800w at 9knts for a single motor (double for both sides). There's a lot of room for improvement as this was with a 17" feathering prop. Tests are going to start soon for a 19" feathering.

The sweet spot for this boat was running the hybrid 35hp diesel at 1400rpm to the prop, the electric motor being used as a generator - brings the load for the diesel into a good range - and sending the 5kw generated to the other hulls electric motor. With this combo, the boat was doing 6.1knts. The real test will be to findout what the fuel burn was running this way vs obtaining 6.1knts with just the single diesel reved higher. They haven't logged this yet.

Hybrid Marine (Beta Hybrid) have seen a huge switch in sales from barge/canal boats to performance catamarans in the past two years. Easily driven hulls with higher average sailing speeds really helps to make the numbers with regen and propulsion more usable.

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Old 26-10-2022, 15:10   #37
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Re: Why hybrid?

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Originally Posted by NPCampbell View Post
Good point. This is what Jedi was getting at and it went over my head. Turbos are more efficient than 18 HP-gal/hr but not enough so to come close to 80% of 80 HP.
I’ve checked various engines, turbos don’t significantly improve fuel economy. What they do is allow you to get more power out of the same size engine, albeit using more fuel so fuel economy is about the same.

I wish the OP would indicate what boat and engine size he has. I’m figuring his boat is about 35 feet with a 30 to 40 hp motor.
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Old 26-10-2022, 16:40   #38
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Re: Why hybrid?

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
I’ve checked various engines, turbos don’t significantly improve fuel economy. What they do is allow you to get more power out of the same size engine, albeit using more fuel so fuel economy is about the same.
Turbos and intercoolers both increase the volumetric and thermal efficiency of engines. You can generate the same HP with less rotating mass and less friction. This should translate to both an increase in overall efficiency and specific power. I would expect 22 HP-hr/gal vs 18 for NA. I can't model diesels with DynoSim but with gas engines this is what you typically see.

However, even with turbos, the math isn't there. I think the OP is probably accurate with the 1 gal/hr but may have overstated the 80%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
I wish the OP would indicate what boat and engine size he has. I’m figuring his boat is about 35 feet with a 30 to 40 hp motor.
In a previous post he mentions a Super Amel 53.
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Old 26-10-2022, 17:07   #39
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Re: Why hybrid?

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Originally Posted by NPCampbell View Post
Turbos and intercoolers both increase the volumetric and thermal efficiency of engines. You can generate the same HP with less rotating mass and less friction. This should translate to both an increase in overall efficiency and specific power. I would expect 22 HP-hr/gal vs 18 for NA. I can't model diesels with DynoSim but with gas engines this is what you typically see.

However, even with turbos, the math isn't there. I think the OP is probably accurate with the 1 gal/hr but may have overstated the 80%.


In a previous post he mentions a Super Amel 53.
A Super Maramu? It must have a reef hanging under it when it needs 80% power to motor 6 knots.
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Old 26-10-2022, 21:01   #40
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Re: Why hybrid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NPCampbell View Post
Turbos and intercoolers both increase the volumetric and thermal efficiency of engines. You can generate the same HP with less rotating mass and less friction. This should translate to both an increase in overall efficiency and specific power. I would expect 22 HP-hr/gal vs 18 for NA. I can't model diesels with DynoSim but with gas engines this is what you typically see.

However, even with turbos, the math isn't there. I think the OP is probably accurate with the 1 gal/hr but may have overstated the 80%.


In a previous post he mentions a Super Amel 53.
in post #3 the OP mentions Amels having had regen installed but makes no mention of ownership.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItDepends View Post
The whole idea of "regenerative power" is WAY over hyped. It's nothing new, boats have had propshaft alternators for decades. I am very familiar with the installations that were put on many of Amel's boats. At 8 knots, they could make about 25A @ 24V, or about 0.5 kW. Enough to supply house power, and slowly add to the house battery charge, but NOWHERE enough for a useful addition to a drive system's energy budget....
The best fuel efficiency info I have found is for ag-tractors.
https://tractortestlab.unl.edu/test-page-nttl

If anything 18hp-hr/gal is overstating their efficiency. There are large motors in the 6,000cc and up with get 17-19hp-hr/gal, a few break 20, but those motors are 300hp and up.

For motors in the 45-100hp range, all with turbos they get 12.6-18.5hp-hr/gal. As engine sizes decrease so does efficiency.
https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...actormuseumlit
https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...actormuseumlit
https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...actormuseumlit
https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...actormuseumlit
https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...actormuseumlit
https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...actormuseumlit
https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...actormuseumlit

Keep in mind too that these numbers are for full power, which few people tend to maintain for long. Efficiency also drops significantly as rpm and power drop.

If you want to argue that these are tractor engines not marine engines, keep in mind that a single tractor will use 10,000-25,000gal in a year sowing, tending and harvesting so efficiency is a big deal to farmers, there is a significant profit motive to get the most efficient tractor which provides the producers with a big incentive to provide the most efficient tractors.

I believe there is more motivation for tractor producers to make the most efficient engines than recreational marine engine manufacturers.
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Old 26-10-2022, 22:40   #41
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Re: Why hybrid?

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Originally Posted by dannc View Post
Let rephrase the question. Would a hybrid propulsion on a full displacement hull make sense, if:
  1. The boat will spend a significant amount of time moving 25-50 NMs per trip.
  2. The boat will spend time on canals where there are speed limits.
  3. Speed limits would require running the boats diesel propulsion at non optimum RPM levels.
  4. The boat has enough solar power generation to move the boat the required 25-50 NMs per trip. In other words, electric propulsion is almost 100% done from solar power.
  5. The boat has enough battery storage to store power to move the boat the required 25-50 NMs per trip.
  6. The hybrid system is used as a generator.
  7. The hybrid system is used as a get home system.
  8. The hybrid system makes money sense for items 1-7 compared to diesel only propulsion, being able to operate without a generator and/or a diesel powered get home engine.
Later,
Dan
1) For 25-50mile trips. I want to be able to run at upwards of 80% of hull speed not the 2-4kt cruise speeds most EV proponents talk about.
2) A displacement boat is far less impacted by lower speeds as it's already going at lower speeds.
3) Unless you massively oversize the diesel, you will be well into efficient RPM.
4) Enough solar to provide propulsion and sailing are mutually exclusive as the rig will shade the acres of solar panels needed.
5) At normal cruise speeds, that's a lot of batteries with a lot of weight and cost.
6) This can actually be a selling point along with a battery bank sufficient to carry house loads without a generator
7) A hybrid is more complex and less likely to work in a "get home system" situation.
8) A hybrid is typically going to be more expensive and an oddball system.

I think the real selling point is if it can handle heavy house loads without a separate generator.

Where EV works is if you motor very little but the reality is the average new boat buyer is going to motor far more than they sail, so it's really a marketing issue.
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Old 27-10-2022, 11:45   #42
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Re: Why hybrid?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
1) For 25-50mile trips. I want to be able to run at upwards of 80% of hull speed not the 2-4kt cruise speeds most EV proponents talk about.
2) A displacement boat is far less impacted by lower speeds as it's already going at lower speeds.
3) Unless you massively oversize the diesel, you will be well into efficient RPM.
4) Enough solar to provide propulsion and sailing are mutually exclusive as the rig will shade the acres of solar panels needed.
5) At normal cruise speeds, that's a lot of batteries with a lot of weight and cost.
6) This can actually be a selling point along with a battery bank sufficient to carry house loads without a generator
7) A hybrid is more complex and less likely to work in a "get home system" situation.
8) A hybrid is typically going to be more expensive and an oddball system.

I think the real selling point is if it can handle heavy house loads without a separate generator.

Where EV works is if you motor very little but the reality is the average new boat buyer is going to motor far more than they sail, so it's really a marketing issue.
For most/many mono hull sail boats, I really don't see the how a hybrid makes sense because of the lack of room for solar panels and shading. A hybrid just adds expense and complexity without much gain. However, for power boats and multi hulls, the calculation can differ since they have, or might have, more room for solar panels.

Hybrid can make sense if one can get rid of the genset and/or take home engine in a power boat. Getting rid of a genset, and/or a take home engine, would be minimizing complexity with a hybrid. Most of the hybrid system, chargers, batteries, PV, etc, would already be in place on many boats, one would just be increasing the number or size of the components.

I have spent plenty of time on sail boats put putting along at 2-3 knots due to wind. Not to mention having to go extra miles to catch the wind, tacking, and jibing. A hybrid power boat could easily beat a sailboat in many of the conditions we are sailing. Rabbit and Hare type of thing. On our trip to Scotland I really wanted to slow down the trawler because it was moving too fast at 5 knots not leaving us enough time to look at the scenery.

In our case, we are looking at traveling the European canals some of which have speed limits. Being able to go slow under electric power would be an advantage. Put putting along at low speeds, without properly loading the diesel, would not be a good thing.

The battery weight is not really an issue since I can't imagine anything but LiFePo being used for a hybrid.

The boat we are looking at has 6-7 KWs of solar panels and the hybrid system is around 50K Euros extra. If that price includes the required batteries, that is not bad, especially, if one does not need a generator and/or get home engine. Not many sailboats can put up 6-7KW of solar panels without issues.

Later,
Dan
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Old 27-10-2022, 16:58   #43
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Why hybrid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
1) For 25-50mile trips. I want to be able to run at upwards of 80% of hull speed not the 2-4kt cruise speeds most EV proponents talk about.

2) A displacement boat is far less impacted by lower speeds as it's already going at lower speeds.

3) Unless you massively oversize the diesel, you will be well into efficient RPM.

4) Enough solar to provide propulsion and sailing are mutually exclusive as the rig will shade the acres of solar panels needed.

5) At normal cruise speeds, that's a lot of batteries with a lot of weight and cost.

6) This can actually be a selling point along with a battery bank sufficient to carry house loads without a generator

7) A hybrid is more complex and less likely to work in a "get home system" situation.

8) A hybrid is typically going to be more expensive and an oddball system.


I think the real selling point is if it can handle heavy house loads without a separate generator.

Where EV works is if you motor very little but the reality is the average new boat buyer is going to motor far more than they sail, so it's really a marketing issue.
My best research is for a Cal-34. The following answers are geared with that boat in mind.

1. With a 300Ahr bank at 48v I could go about 10nm at 6kt which is about 86% of hull speed and about 20nm at 5kt. 25-50nm at 5.6kt, no way. But I will happily take an 18% time disadvantage to double my range. This works with ICE fuel consumption too.

2. I don’t understand this point.

3. If the prop and engine are sized right you hit max power and RPM at hull speed. At 80% of hull speed you are using about 60% of max power. Using the data for the first tractor motor I listed in previous post

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...actormuseumlit

At max power the engine is making 15.1hp-hr/gal.

At 65% 11.45. That’s a 24% loss of efficiency. Despite that mpg will have gone up because total demand per mile will have dropped faster than efficiency dropped.

4. I figured out how to arrange panels for 1000-1200W of solar.

2x175W on arch aft of back stay. 2x325W Bimini. 2x100W dodger. Each panel gets its own controller to minimize shading effects and for redundancy.

Let’s assume half are shaded and provide no output whatsoever. That’s still 600W.

5. I did a weight comparison for Atomic-4 & 25gal vs electric motor and 300Ahr of FLA batteries at 48v and electric was about 20lb lighter. EP would be behind by 50-75lb once you accounted for added solar panels. Hybrid would be even or down depending on the particular system.

6. Yep. Lots of solar and batteries makes having an electric galley a reasonable consideration.

7. Complexity depends on the particular system. As long as the clutches work on the BetaMarine system there is redundancy, ICE fails, use the EP and solar or a small generator to move along at slow speeds. EP fails it's ICE all the way. While clutches are not fool-proof they are pretty reliable.

8. Cost depends on the particular system. The term "oddball" strikes me as a pejorative way of saying it's new, has little market penetration and reliability is relatively unknown.

AtomVoyages has an outboard-inboard modification that Baldwin can install on certain boats where an outboard is installed in a well at the back of the boat so that the propensity of the prop to come out of the water in a seaway is vastly reduced and the motor can tilt up and the slot to do so filled removing all prop drag when sailing. On at least one vessel he has installed this and replaced the inboard engine with an electric motor and batteries. This would not strictly be a hybrid unless the EP had regen. This system has completely redundant propulsion. This is the system I intend to install when I buy a bigger boat.
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Old 27-10-2022, 23:30   #44
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Re: Why hybrid?

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Yes i agree. I did not mean to impress that i thought the regenerative power from the freewheeling prop would be enough to charge the batteries quickly and efficiently enough to be 'regularly' useable by the electric portion of the engine. My thinking was more along the lines that that power could be used to supplement the house loads.

I would expect that the BETA hybrids would need the diesel engine running to be able to charge the electric engine batteries or other forms of power generation like solar to create enough power to use the electric engine regularly.

In our experience with my friends electric engine in her 30ft sailboat however, the regenerative ability of the prop is enough to get approx 10% recovered energy back into the batteries on a 3-4 hour day sail, and thats with 5-6knots hull speed, about her boats max. When the batteries are fully charged (shore power) we can use the electric motor for several hours at about 25%+ power output, give or take. Combined with the sails on low wind days this moves us along quite nicely. She has 200Ah of AGM batteries, (4X 12 volt in series). I would imagine that with the energy density of lithium and a larger bank, that could get much better. If one had a decent solar array, combined with a lithium system and maybe something like a Watt and Sea generator plus freewheeling the prop on a hybrid engine, seems like it could actually make the electric portion of a hybrid engine useable way more often.

All of that though is VERY expensive so the argument of if its actually worth it, i suppose probably not. If one's cruising boat already has most or all of these things though, or plans to install them, then when it comes time to replace the diesel engine, maybe the extra cost for the hybrid diesel makes sense?
I was reviewing the OceanVolt system (all electric) at the Barcelona Boat Show a couple of weeks ago. It's extremely appealing to me in many ways:

Lighter than my D1-30 and Fuel by 144 kg
Smaller carbon footprint (should be if your shore source is green)
Sufficient for my typical coastal cruiser usage: 28nm range @ 5.6kts
Prop regen would balance energy consumption assuming 1/2 hour on the electric for in and out of port, sailing 6.5 hours at 5kts.
Quiet!

I could add a generator and have a hybrid system if worried about range and probably still net out less weight. The generator would also give me AC in the MED summers

Downside in my application: eyewatering expensive: $40k+ all in.

As the batteries get cheaper and the systems continue to evolve this price will come down, but needs to be halved for me to get serious about it. Probably needs tax subsidies for this to happen...
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Old 27-10-2022, 23:51   #45
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Why hybrid?

Take cost of hybrid (H) and conversion charges(HC) plus 10 years service costs and running costs (HS) (HR)

Compare with existing installed diesel

Ie (HC + ΗC+ HS + HR ) much less then ( C + S + R)

It maybe a good idea

Otherwise you’re just fooling yourself cause all these systems do is “ move “ a boat
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