Why hybrid?

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Preferred to motor for long periods, sure. Only a few probably had to, the only reasons I can see for actual need are injury, damage to the rig or did not provision properly and are running out of food.

If you have the engine, the fuel, the money for it and the preference that’s fine.

But don’t conflate personal preference with a actual need.

In a good hybrid design the ICE would be able to propel the boat just badly to hull speed in flat water, so throttled a little to cruising RPMs the boat would make about 75% of hull speed. This would put the motor at the optimum rpm for efficiency and longevity.
Full throttle would maintain that 75% against moderate wind and waves but would need an electric boost in heavier winds or waves which would only work as long as the battery lasted.

Of course in heavier winds a reefed main and a staysail would be to optimum way to go to windward, not a motor.

Two years ago we sailed from the East Coast to the Caribbean, it took nine days. Five of those nine days were at 30 AWA triple reefed with a staysail. If I could have motored a day to avoid the brunt of the system I would have happily done it. Unfortunately that wasn't possible. So sometimes I motor to catch favorable weather or avoid unfavorable weather. I have no issues with others not needing or wanting to position their boats for the reasons I state.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Preferred to motor for long periods, sure. Only a few probably had to, the only reasons I can see for actual need are injury, damage to the rig or did not provision properly and are running out of food.

If you have the engine, the fuel, the money for it and the preference that’s fine.

But don’t conflate personal preference with a actual need.

In a good hybrid design the ICE would be able to propel the boat just badly to hull speed in flat water, so throttled a little to cruising RPMs the boat would make about 75% of hull speed. This would put the motor at the optimum rpm for efficiency and longevity.
Full throttle would maintain that 75% against moderate wind and waves but would need an electric boost in heavier winds or waves which would only work as long as the battery lasted.

Of course in heavier winds a reefed main and a staysail would be to optimum way to go to windward, not a motor.

Here's another one, this story has a happy outcome from motoring for a few hours.

Three years ago we were returning stateside from the Caribbean. About 600 miles from Charleston we had to park for 12 hours or so to let a TS pass by. When the front passed it sucked all the air out of the area. We motored for 6~8 hours to get back in the breeze and had a pleasant sail to Charleston.

We could have sat for who knows how long in the slop and waited for a breeze or we could have gotten underway sooner and been closer to the TS. We chose to motor for a bit.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by pete c

For that 35fter that sails coastal New England and actually enjoys using sails, that same 10kw motor, a decent battery bank and 400w of solar atop the Bimini should mean you'll never need to plug in and your boat will smell great.

We just spent 4 months in New England and Canada on our 43 footer. We have 700 watts of solar, and that does not cover house loads. So 400 watts will not make you autonomous.

Also, in New england, plugging in isn't an option most of the time, marinas are expensive and scarce. The majority of commercial overnight facilities are mooring buoys.

400 watts of solar ideally makes between 1 and 2 kwh per day, or enough to run that 10 kw motor for about 5-10 minutes (more at lower power, of course). And that's with zero house loads. If you left the boat on a mooring (and turned off fridge etc), you might get an hour's worth of motoring after a week with good sun.

We absolutely depended on our Watt and Sea, and our main engine alternators to mostly meet daily demands, and the occasional shore power connection to get to 100%.

One of my biggest problems with EP discussions is my expectation that many who go down the path with unrealistic expectations end up being disappointed. In your post above, if you had added an additional sentence about requiring a plug-in 2 to 3 times a week, you would be much closer to framing the proposal correctly.

[s/v Jedi]

OMG it just became clear to me… we now have sailboats who identify as motorboats and the other way around, plus every possible mix of the two

Also: yes, when passage planning turned out really bad, the engine may help fix it. A decent storm will suck all weather with it when it leaves an area so it’s better not to depart until everything is back to normal.

I’m not saying it never happens… we once ended up sailing straight through a tropical storm right on the Mona Passage and it’s hard to come up with a better example of bad planning. (The weatherfax called it a weak tropical wave 4 hours before naming the storm… the good old days)

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Joli

Two years ago we sailed from the East Coast to the Caribbean, it took nine days. Five of those nine days were at 30 AWA triple reefed with a staysail. If I could have motored a day to avoid the brunt of the system I would have happily done it. Unfortunately that wasn't possible. So sometimes I motor to catch favorable weather or avoid unfavorable weather. I have no issues with others not needing or wanting to position their boats for the reasons I state.

As you make clear yourself, repositioning would be a preference, not a need.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

We just spent 4 months in New England and Canada on our 43 footer. We have 700 watts of solar, and that does not cover house loads. So 400 watts will not make you autonomous.

Also, in New england, plugging in isn't an option most of the time, marinas are expensive and scarce. The majority of commercial overnight facilities are mooring buoys.

400 watts of solar ideally makes between 1 and 2 kwh per day, or enough to run that 10 kw motor for about 5-10 minutes (more at lower power, of course). And that's with zero house loads. If you left the boat on a mooring (and turned off fridge etc), you might get an hour's worth of motoring after a week with good sun.

We absolutely depended on our Watt and Sea, and our main engine alternators to mostly meet daily demands, and the occasional shore power connection to get to 100%.

One of my biggest problems with EP discussions is my expectation that many who go down the path with unrealistic expectations end up being disappointed. In your post above, if you had added an additional sentence about requiring a plug-in 2 to 3 times a week, you would be much closer to framing the proposal correctly.

700W installed and you don't have enough. What are your biggest consumers onboard?

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

OMG it just became clear to me… we now have sailboats who identify as motorboats and the other way around, plus every possible mix of the two

...

I can see how a sailboat could act as a power boat but not the other way around. Enlighten me.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Adelie

700W installed and you don't have enough. What are your biggest consumers onboard?

First, 700 watts very rarely makes 400 watts of power. There's always some shading. I have since removed the wind generator which will definitely help. I'm seriously thinking about moving the radar to the mast which would help also. My all in solar generation is maybe 100 -- 150 amp hours a day if I'm lucky.

* Refrigeration is about 70 amp hours a day.
* My chartplotter draws about 5 amps, so that's another 10 amp hours a day.
* A few more incidental loads and I am over a hundred amps hours a day.
* The diesel heat, if we run it for a couple of hours in the evening, we can suck down another 20 or more amp hours. Fortunately, we didn't use it much this summer.
* We burn another 20 to 30 each morning on the trip coffee maker. That is indeed a discretionary load that could be done on the stove. But since we will be running the engine before the coffee cup is empty, it's not a real big downside.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Adelie

As you make clear yourself, repositioning would be a preference, not a need.

Until it is a need.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

A decent storm will suck all weather with it when it leaves an area so it’s better not to depart until everything is back to normal.

Tough to have more then four days accurate weather. Maybe turn around when we're a thousand miles into a passage and wait for a better window?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Joli

Tough to have more then four days accurate weather. Maybe turn around when we're a thousand miles into a passage and wait for a better window?

A named storm is very avoidable today, weather forecast hasbeen improved greatly since the debacle with Ivan in 2004.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Joli

Until it is a need.

When does it become a need?

Per a paper Evens Starzinger did, you need to average about 9kt to outrun a storm.

How many boats use their engines to reposition in open ocean prior to a storm?

Usually by the time a storm is close enough to know which way to run, a deeply reefed main and storm jib are more appropriate than motoring.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Adelie

I can see how a sailboat could act as a power boat but not the other way around. Enlighten me.

Everything is possible today, even just imaginary will be good enough

[Adelie]

In Seattle there is a beer can race called the Duck Dodge.

I once took a 16' Boston Whaler that was out of order had no engine set up with a rudder, lee boards and a 470 rig. We were in the slow class and finished in the middle of the pack. Of course everybody else was on their second circuit around the course and we were on our first.

Good times. Would have liked to try it with bigger rig on a 13' Whaler.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Adelie

In Seattle there is a beer can race called the Duck Dodge.

I once took a 16' Boston Whaler that was out of order had no engine set up with a rudder, lee boards and a 470 rig. We were in the slow class and finished in the middle of the pack. Of course everybody else was on their second circuit around the course and we were on our first.

Good times. Would have liked to try it with bigger rig on a 13' Whaler.

Oh I remember crewing in a 470 and that leads me to memories of sailing a plywood Flying Dutchman

But yes, some motorboats have been identifying as sailboats for a long time now that we think of it haha