Water in the engine

[jhulmer]

Yanmar's have a drain hole in the bottom of the bell housing. All I've worked on anyway.
The flywheel and the damper are not usually coated very well and have light rust just from the air. I prime mine before reinstalling. If it was just fresh water I wouldn't worry about it. figure out why it didn't drain and fix that. Then run the engine long enough to dry it out and move on to the next project. Put waterproof grease on the ring gear before reinstalling the start.

[DeepFrz]

Skip, I think you really have to bite the bullet and pull the transmission back to get a look at what you have going there. When you have it apart, drill a hole in the bottom of the bell housing. I'm not even going to ask how you got your bell housing full of water...

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

There is a perverse logic in that, if you fill a 55 gl drum with water and seal it, it will rust slightly inside until all the O2 is consumed into iron oxide, from that point on there will be no more rust as long as its sealed.
Don't anyone take it seriously its an attempt at humor.

I'm pretty sure Mark's suggestion to add only water was based on his great reluctance to see any form of alcohol used for purposes other than consumption.

So for inquiring minds, here's the rest of the story.

Pulled a hose off a Whale foot pump for raw water to the sink. I thought the seacock was closed, no water came out when I pulled the hose so didn't check. WRONG!!! Some while later it started siphoning into the boat and got high enough to get into the engine.

Setup is Westerbeke W58 which is just a Perkins 4.154 with red paint and higher price. BW Velvet Drive tranny and V-drive.

Have already dealt with all the rest of the stuff. Drained the oil, refilled, new filters (oil and fuel), pulled injectors, pulled starter, alternator, spun engine etc, etc, etc. Have done everything except start the engine which will come soon. Running the engine will of course trigger another round of oil and filter changes.

The only thing I know that I don't know is the damper plate. There's probably other issues here I don't know about but I don't know that I don't know about these so ignorance is bliss.

First time I spun the engine water came flying out of the front of my dried, cleaned and newly reinstalled starter. I didn't think about water in the bell housing and to be honest, assumed there would be a drain in the bottom but either there is none or it's clogged. So yes, pulled the starter (again), dried it (again), got a little pump and sucked out all the water I could.

Yes I am very concerned about putting the wrong goop in the bell housing and damaging the seals. I thought about isopropyl alcohol since it is miscible in water and would encourage the remaining water to evaporate but would it dry or damage the seals at all????

Also, once the area is dry I would like to add something to protect the metal while still protecting the seals. That's why I considered plain old engine oil.

The only access, without pulling the engine, is through the hole where the starter mounts and I really, really, really do not want to pull the engine at this time. The damper plate is not original. The PO replaced the V-drive did the damper at the same time so I think I'm good for a while if it doesn't turn into a pile of iron oxide.

So, pour a little oil in the little hole and slop it around to coat and maybe slow the corrosion? Anything else I could add or do to stop the rust without melting my seals?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Lancerbye

Could be an ideal time to check the damper plate. If you have an older boat and you have gone many years without having to remove the transmission you could end up like I did one nice summer day, as I was anchoring and shifted into reverse to set the anchor with no response. Luckily I have twin engines and recovered the short panic situation by starting the other engine. After a few tests I realized that the coupling between the engine and transmission was gone. I removed the heavy transmission and there was the old damper plate basically falling apart. I ended up replacing both damper plates with heavier R&D types that don't use springs and are stainless. If you already have that type in your setup, you don't have to do anything. It will dry up on it's own and be fine.

From all I can tell the current damper plate is good but it probably won't last forever. The R&D sounds interesting. Is that a brand name or a type of damper?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Skip, I think you really have to bite the bullet and pull the transmission back to get a look at what you have going there. :

I agree this would be the best and the ideal but for so many reasons this is the worst possible time for me to get into a major engine project. Unless it meant certain, immediate, total failure of the entire drive train I would rather do more and spend more later than to do less now.

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

I'm not even going to ask how you got your bell housing full of water...

Done already fessed up. Operator error. Slacker syndrome. Attack of the stupids.

[Barney21]

The water is more than likely coming from the "Welch Plug" which is behind the drive plate inserted into the block it should be brass , but someone? may have fitted a steel one hence the leak.
I woulnt use CRC or anyone of similar products I would suggest you use good old fashioned Fish oil. It will coat all surfaces with a thick wax, it will not attack seals etc . It wont stop the water leak but will stop rust as it completely coats the steel drive plate. It stinks like dead fish for a bit , you apply it with compressed air from a spray kerosene type device. Any excess will settle in the bottom of the bell housing so you may have to stick a piece of wire through any drain holes, to unblock them.
Let me know how you go.
I coat all my farm equipment /boat engines truck engines / with it , may be Grand Pa,s remedy ------ is as cheap as chips, old stuff is sometimes good stuff

[Lancerbye]

Originally Posted by skipmac

From all I can tell the current damper plate is good but it probably won't last forever. The R&D sounds interesting. Is that a brand name or a type of damper?

It's a Brand name available at PYI. Order online or phone. As for the other question about removing the transmission. I raised the back end of the engine and blocked it. Unbolt the bell housing and use some suspension system like a chain hoist to support the transmission as you slide it back. I have two BorgWarner CR2s which are not light. I was only 68 when I did them. As you get older you have to work smarter. Chain hoist and low hydraulic jacks are your friends.

[jhulmer]

I think your good to add the motor oil - it can't hurt other then the mess.

the damper plates are tough and this one incident is not going to hurt it.

I would use a minimum amount of oil in the bell housing. Since the drain is absent or clogged the flywheel will do the work of distributing the oil if you turn the engine over by hand a few times. Then after a while of rotations suck the oil out of the bell housing.

but again in my opinion (FWIW) your ok with just drying it out and let it go. The corrosion stops, more or less, when the water is gone. If it was saltwater I would have a different opinion.

[leftbrainstuff]

Analysis paralysis here.

Water in bell housing is not by design or beneficial. All bell housings should have a drain hole. It helps greatly with diagnosing oil and water leaks and identifying bits of metal.

The water will either come from internal or external to the engine. If internal then likely from a welch plug. Have you lost coolant?

If external then you may have a leak that finds it's way into the bell housing. Fresh or sea water?

Finally once the bell housing is drained and the leak identified and fixed then you can ensure no corrosion remains inside the bellhousing.

Remove the starter, swab any moistute you can and then let it dry. Hot air blower running for enough time will dry it out. Or just run the engine.

You can then use any number of water displacing fluids like wd40 or corrosion x. I prefer not to because they attract grit and make it harder to diagnose real leaks.

Good old fashioned elbow grease and a small telescopic mirror work wonders.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

Analysis paralysis here.

Water in bell housing is not by design or beneficial. All bell housings should have a drain hole. It helps greatly with diagnosing oil and water leaks and identifying bits of metal.

The water will either come from internal or external to the engine. If internal then likely from a welch plug. Have you lost coolant?

If external then you may have a leak that finds it's way into the bell housing. Fresh or sea water?

Finally once the bell housing is drained and the leak identified and fixed then you can ensure no corrosion remains inside the bellhousing.

Remove the starter, swab any moistute you can and then let it dry. Hot air blower running for enough time will dry it out. Or just run the engine.

Well, all this was covered in my post, #18.

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

You can then use any number of water displacing fluids like wd40 or corrosion x. I prefer not to because they attract grit and make it harder to diagnose real leaks.

Good old fashioned elbow grease and a small telescopic mirror work wonders.

Corrosion X might be interesting. From their website. "Rubber: No visible effect on Buna-N, Viton, or Neoprene products (such as gaskets, O-rings, or seals) but slight swelling and/or softening of butyl rubber items."

Maybe the question I should be asking is, "What are shaft seals in a Perkins engine and a BW transmission made of and what kind of corrosion inhibitor or oil type product will not damage them?"

[a64pilot]

Corrosion - X, at least the aviation stuff won't hurt anything.
I have for at least ten years yearly washed my outboards well with soap and water and then with the engine cover off and sprayed a full layer of Corrosion -X over the entire engine, hoses, wires and all, leave the whole thing dripping wet.
I do the same now with my Yanmar.
Only thing I do not spray is the inside of the alternator, I figure no kind of oil would be good for its brushes, they don't need to be lubricated

[Perna]

I'm a bit late to the party and I'm sure Skipmac will have done whatever he was going to do.

Just to say my own preference would have been to run it normally to get it hot and then leave it. Anything that was lubricated with grease would still be lubricated and any surface rust, (so long as it was fresh water in the housing) is not really important. The trouble with spraying oil or WD40 in there for me would be that most dampers contain rubber elements which don't particularly like lubricants.

What did you do in the end Skipmac?

[DougR]

Best idea is to separate the gear from the bell housing to clean and dry then re-grease the input shaft and damper splines. Failing that, WD 40 or Corrosion X the day lights out of it so that the water is removed from the shaft splines.

Most old damper plates of that vintage are merely spring plates and won't be harmed by lubricants. The worst thing is for surface rust to form on the damper splines and input shaft because they become very difficult (impossible) to get apart. You end up having to destroy the bell housing to get the gearbox off.

DougR

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Perna

I'm a bit late to the party and I'm sure Skipmac will have done whatever he was going to do.

Just to say my own preference would have been to run it normally to get it hot and then leave it. Anything that was lubricated with grease would still be lubricated and any surface rust, (so long as it was fresh water in the housing) is not really important. The trouble with spraying oil or WD40 in there for me would be that most dampers contain rubber elements which don't particularly like lubricants.

What did you do in the end Skipmac?

So far I've drained all the water out of all bits of the engine, pulled starter and alternator disassembled, cleaned and dried both, ran the engine, changed the oil, ran the engine, changed the oil, ran the engine longer, checked oil saw no milky look at all.

By now all seems pretty dry. So far haven't put anything into the bell housing but leaning strongly towards squirting in some Corrosion X fairly soon.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by DougR

Best idea is to separate the gear from the bell housing to clean and dry then re-grease the input shaft and damper splines. Failing that, WD 40 or Corrosion X the day lights out of it so that the water is removed from the shaft splines.

Most old damper plates of that vintage are merely spring plates and won't be harmed by lubricants. The worst thing is for surface rust to form on the damper splines and input shaft because they become very difficult (impossible) to get apart. You end up having to destroy the bell housing to get the gearbox off.

DougR

I agree on the best option but for a whole lot of reasons, just isn't really feasible for now. Barring imminent death of the engine if I neglected pulling it apart I just have to do what I can for now and hope for the best.