Should we buy a boat whose owner didn't let the surveyor use full throttle?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Guy

I wouldn't let anybody run my engine wide open and our boat is for sale. You buy it you can do anything you want but you are not going to abuse my boat. There is no point in running it wide open. I could see a check of what the max rpm is, but no more than that. At high rpm the boat goes no faster, the stern just squats anyway.

Running an engine "wide open" is not abusing it. It may overtax the cooling system or cause the tranny to slip or issues with the prop, but this is not abuse, it is a faulty engine installation or failing component... exactly what a sea trial is supposed to reveal.

So, Guy, a discerning buyer is not gonna buy your boat...

Jim

[boatpoker]

Diesel tractors, buses, big rigs on the highway (and little rigs) and ferries when docking in current often run WOT. If a diesel cannot run WOT something is wrong.

Twice I've seen owners refuse to run WOT on sea trials. In both cases The buyer forced the issue. On one vessel the boat actually slowed down as compression problems became evident. On the other vessel the exhaust manifold joint started to bubble and froth.

It is not the surveyors boat. It is not the surveyors deal. He cannot demand or insist anything, he is there to observe and report ..... period. Negotiations for conditions of the survey, sea trial and the deal are the buyers arena.

I can and do refuse jobs when I don't like the conditions but it's not my place to get involved with those negotiations and there is no way in hell I'm getting involved in an argument with an owner.

[a64pilot]

I regularly run mine at WOT, for about 5 min every 50 or so hours.
Best way to tell if you have up coming issues like a weak cooling system etc.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Guy

I wouldn't let anybody run my engine wide open and our boat is for sale. You buy it you can do anything you want but you are not going to abuse my boat. There is no point in running it wide open. I could see a check of what the max rpm is, but no more than that. At high rpm the boat goes no faster, the stern just squats anyway.

WADR, I personally think that's nonsense. Why? My boat sat for six months during the dreaded winter here. I started her up the other day, and once warmed up, made damn sure the engine would go to WOT and stay there for at least a few minutes.

If the engine can't or won't go to WOT out of gear, there's something wrong. Could be as simple as slipping alternator belt, or something a lot less simple.

While you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT when you say: "At high rpm the boat goes no faster, the stern just squats anyway...", there may well be times when you either want or NEED full throttle for more than just a nanosecond.

On my trip up the coast from SF to Vancouver Island, I needed full throttle for almost an hour to get into Newport, OR, because when we left the bar at Umpqua, the timing to get to Newport made us get there on an ebb.

Years ago I had installed a larger HX,. Darned happy I did. I can run WOT for hours and not overheat.

Suspicion abounds when the PO says no go.

Just IMHO.

[sy_gilana]

We have never opened ours up to WOT. Its a Detroit 3/53 and drives a 34" Hundested variable pitch prop. I would not allow anyone to do this, and if I had a "surveyor" coming to look, I would make adjustments to keep the revs to decent levels. She can rev to 2600, but she will smoke like crazy because the air boxes are oily. We make 5 knots at 900 RPM, hull speed at 1300 RPM (9.3knots) why take her to 2600? Its not something we, or you as a new owner would ever do.

Might as well say, "Must fly spinnaker in 35 knots of wind for 10 minutes"

Not on my boat, buy it, then do your thing...

[snort]

If you really, really want the boat, just say, "I'll buy your boat on one condition. I have to see if the diesel can handle full power for a few minutes. It's a safety concern of mine".

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by Guy

I wouldn't let anybody run my engine wide open and our boat is for sale. You buy it you can do anything you want but you are not going to abuse my boat. There is no point in running it wide open. I could see a check of what the max rpm is, but no more than that. At high rpm the boat goes no faster, the stern just squats anyway.

If there is an offer with a deposit you have no right to make such restrictions.

I run everything wide open. Having raced cars for years it is obvious that different issues are revealed at various throttle setting from idle to full open.

If a boat that's fine at 89% does nothing but squat at full bore there is a fault somewhere.

I've not run the big boat full open in a decade but I expect that should I need to it will not disappoint.

I'm in the buying market and if I were told no full throttle you can keep it. I don't have time or money to risk owners hiding major flaws.

[Wotname]

As a buyer doing a sea trail, I would do nothing to "abuse" my potential purchase BUT if I was not allowed to carry out a WOT test for 10 minutes, I would need to know ( and verify) the factual reasons why not.

A WOT test gives many indications of both the design and serviceability of the engine / transmission / prop / hull systems.

If there is a poor design issue or if there is some unserviceability of any of the components of the system, I would need to know this before completing the deal. Some things might not be a deal breaker but if not allowed to discover the issues, then why would I not run?????

[CSY Man]

Full throttle is not abuse.
When I bought my CSY the surveyor requested full throttle.
When I sold it 14 years later, another surveyor requested full throttle.
(In gear and underway obviously)
If the engine and drive train can not handle it without self destructing, we have a problem.
The seller should disclose "No Full Throttle Operation"before any survey or sea trial so the buyer can save time and money by walking away.

[model 10]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

So, Guy, a discerning buyer is not gonna buy your boat...

Jim

I don't know about that. It's going to take a week at best to put it back in the water. All the lines are put away everything is pickled. For this kind of money no one will go through that much work. Look it over and buy it.

[Zs2mat]

Similar story and now have cooling problems at higher power settings.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by Guy

I don't know about that. It's going to take a week at best to put it back in the water. All the lines are put away everything is pickled. For this kind of money no one will go through that much work. Look it over and buy it.

So you believe there'll be no issue selling a boat without a sea trial at all? And you think that all the cost of putting it in the water for a sea trial should be borne by the potential buyer? If that's the case I'd agree; you're right. It sounds like far too much hassle and expense for a buyer to even consider your boat.

[jmac9365]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I have yet to see a sailboat that could cavitation a prop, have to see it to believe it.
Is this a sailboat?

Did you ask the seller why he didn't want run at Full Throttle ,and you could always take it for a second sea trial

Originally Posted by Calif.Ted

Depends on what is meant by "full throttle" if he got it up to 80 % of WOT that should be all that's required. For most small diesels thats probably 2800-3000 rpm, I think most people would have a problem with running WOT for long.

Originally Posted by Bill Seal

Bad clutches or marginal cooling system

[Rachinwokingham]

Originally Posted by jmac9365

Did you ask the seller why he didn't want run at Full Throttle ,and you could always take it for a second sea trial

Hi,

Unfortunately we are hundreds of miles away from the boat and it has already cost us a chunk of money to fly out, stay in a hotel and see it, order the survey etc... so a second sea trial would be even more money.
We just got the survey back yesterday and are in touch with the broker but haven't spoken to the owner directly yet. We will ask him for an explanation of course, but we expect he will simply tell us he didn't think full throttle was good for an engine.
The survey turned up other issues as well, so we have lots of questions and are already looking at other boats.
Thanks for the advice!

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by tp12

So you believe there'll be no issue selling a boat without a sea trial at all? And you think that all the cost of putting it in the water for a sea trial should be borne by the potential buyer? If that's the case I'd agree; you're right. It sounds like far too much hassle and expense for a buyer to even consider your boat.

It's funny how some people apply methods and approaches to buying a 5 year old $200-300K boat to buying one 30-50 years old probably listed for under $20-30K. It would be economic madness to do sea trials for a boat on the hard by potential buyers of such a boat. People looking in the $20-30K or under range a) do not usually have an extra $2K for each such potential buy ($600-800 for a survey plus $800-1,200 to splash and put her back on the hard), b) usually are hands on DIY type of owners (or at least will be forced to be such by their limited budgets) and c) know or should know what they are getting into or d) have no choice in getting a "fixer upper" if they really want some boat at their budget.

Guy's info says he has a Seafarer 36 which was first built in 1968. So she is at least 35-40 years old, probably much older. To expect her to be in the same shape and operational integrity as a 5-7 year old boat is just unrealistic.

When I was considering my boat she was 30 years old, B to B- shape and I could not afford to splash her just for the sea trial. Had a survey done (on the hard) had 2 marine pro buddies looked at her and I initially did spend a day looking over her myself. At the time and under the circumstances (wanted to be on the water ASAP but had very limited budget) she looked like the best boat I could get for that $$ and I proved to be correct. Had I done everything many CF members expect/insist to be done in pre-purchase diligence I'd still be be looking.

My other boat at purchase was 30+ years old and no survey, not even an engine check. But it had a set of practically brand new sails, great in and out and over all probably in B+ shape. At $1,500 I took the risk and did end up putting another engine in but at a cost of "only" $1,500 it was as I almost expected. It is still a good buy at $3,000 spent as the same make and vintage models are out there for $10-15K asking price. So at least I can get $5-7K for her if I need to sell quickly.

My point being - there are many valid reasons why the seller will or will not do this or that. If the price reflects the risk of a dud I do not see that it should absolutely be a reason to run from the deal. Just a reason to adjust the price or other conditions of the sale.