Should we buy a boat whose owner didn't let the surveyor use full throttle?

[seabreez]

Originally Posted by Rachinwokingham

Hi all,

We are thinking of buying a 1998 Contest. However, the surveyor had to do the sea trial for us and apparently the owner wouldn't allow him to put the engine up to full throttle. The blooming surveyor didn't insist. Needless to say, we are suspicious now!

Any idea why the owner might have done this? What could he be trying to hide?

Many thanks...

Rachel and Simon

If you have a good surveyor, he should be able to tell you why the owner did not want to rev up the engines. Years ago (10) I did a sea trial for a friend and the owner did not want to rev up the engines. I suspected there was a vibration or overheating of one or both engines. By slowly increasing the revolutions, I did feel some vibration from the gimbal bearings and the heat gauges were not indicating the same temperature, (which is common on many boat). I then told the buyer that there is an overheating problem on one engine probably due to lack of maintenance. I suspected I would insult the seller. Then he opened up about the things that needed attention. On one engine, there was a need to replace the raw water impeller as it was not pumping full flow. On the other was a gimbal bearing. Then there was a negotiated price. Ask for service records, or bills for parts replaced. Good luck...

[Ken Z]

Look for another boat, nonsense, unless the engine tacks out with high rpms. I am constantly blown away at salesmen, oh i mean surveyors... could be anything from a bad cutlass, bent shaft, gearbox enginegetting hot etc.

[Meacenas]

Years ago, we bought vintage muscle cars to resell. I remember when one of our crew let a 'friend' take a 440 Challenger out after hours and he came back with the transmission only working in first gear. He left quickly, never to be seen again. We were stuck with a $3000 fix.
Our neighbor told us about this friend doing some WOT passes, at one point hitting a curb and holing the trans pan.
Another foolish friend bought a 440 packaged car, did some long WOT passes to show off and blew the engine less than a week after he bought it.
Youtube has enough videos of idjiots doing the same.
Unless the old engine has been recently rebuilt to better specs than the original, we never let anyone do any WOT until they buy the item. After that...have all the fun abusing it you want.

[SV Bacchus]

I like IslandTime's breakdown of cost/age/benefit and it makes sense. I once paid $800 for a survey on a $25K Mainship. I didn't buy based on what was found but now that I am more educated I realize I would have made that decision on my own had I known then what I know now. I remember telling my wife "This could get expensive!"

Without a formal survey I would still ask for a sea trial and I would have expected full throttle. Being there in person, instead of absentee and relying on surveyor, I would have had a basket full of questions should WOT been denied.

I am an open-minded person and respect an owner's wishes to not go WOT. Without good answers I would walk. Abuse of engine is not a good answer IMHO. However there are those that would buy without WOT or any sea trial and that is their right and I respect it. I don't judge them by their decision and hope they don't judge me by mine.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Running an engine "wide open" is not abusing it.

This ^^^^^

I would agree with those who say the OP should probably just walk away. There are a lot of boats out there. No need to deal with an owner who doesn't understand what a proper survey and sea trial involves (and a "proper" sea trial ALWAYS includes a brief run at WOT).

Of course, if you really, REALLY like this boat, then maybe it is worth further negotiations on. Only you can decide that.

[ValiantV]

On most (all?) Marine diesel engines, there is a specified rpm the engine needs to be able to reach. Without being able to achieve that rpm, there is either an engine/prop mismatch, or the engine has enough wear or problems that something needs to be dug into further.

During the haul-out, you or the surveyor can determine if the prop is right.

It's the seller's boat until you close. It's the buyers $$$ until you close.

I would HOPE that the seller or broker informed the buyer of this restriction before they contracted with a surveyor. Otherwise, they are limit the ability to assess the engine's state of health. Regardless of their reasoning for denying the "WOT" test.

The example with muscle cars has a few other variables in the mix. A healthy engine and trans SHOULD be able to take "WOT" with no problem so long as the engine is not "lugging" or over revving. (This would seem especially important in a "muscle car".) If you can't put the pedal to the metal in acceptable rpm ranges, something is wrong and you should only consider buying the car figuring it needs engine work. Even an engine with 60-70-80k miles should still be able to put out rated power and function withing the manufacturer's specs. If not, it's time for a rebuild.

[ValiantV]

Oh, and "blowing" an engine due to over revving it, or hitting a curb and tearing open the trans pan are added factors as well.

WOT should be okay, WOT into a seawall or some riprap - not so much. [emoji14]

[Island Time O25]

Also add'l 2c worth.

Unless this is your very first boat, most of us can feel if the boat "sings to us". I don't mean hard numbers, or price or its reviews. I mean that proverbial sine qua non which makes us chose a boat, a partner or a particular profession or hobby.

After a while (20 years of sailing and 15+ years of ownership and active boat searches) I can step into a boat and not knowing its asking price, make, age or hidden pluses and minuses and I can tell if I would be one with her. It is not a feeling to overwhelm the common sense though but a beginning of the process of becoming her owner/master. No amount of discounts and cajoling would make me buy a boat which does not sing to me first. Nor would I be dissuaded by minor and repairable flaws or idiosyncrasies which others may find deal breakers. Unless you're getting a work boat to get you from A to B boat buying is more like dating for with a relationship in mind - most of the time we just fall into it.

That being said, an untested engine is like marrying a virgin. Sometime you will luck out but most of the time you will need at least some idea of what's in store.

[ValiantV]

Not so sure ours "sang" to us, but it did speak softly and assuringly and certainly didn't cry out "I've got a bad feeling about this".

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by ValiantV

Not so sure ours "sang" to us, but it did speak softly and assuringly and certainly didn't cry out "I've got a bad feeling about this".

A rose by any other name...

IMO we all buy boats for different reasons. The final choice should fit that reason. Otherwise what's the point? When the reason and the boat are in sync I call it a "song". Somebody else will call it a whisper. As long as it's not a blood curling pockets emptying screech.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Rachinwokingham

Hi all,

We are thinking of buying a 1998 Contest. However, the surveyor had to do the sea trial for us and apparently the owner wouldn't allow him to put the engine up to full throttle. The blooming surveyor didn't insist. Needless to say, we are suspicious now!

Any idea why the owner might have done this? What could he be trying to hide?

Many thanks...

Rachel and Simon

Full throttle. I would be concerned if the owner would not allow it. It is not a good practice. I'm sure someone will explain why.

[KadeyKrogen38]

Most engine manufacturers recommend running at full throttle to decarbon on a routine basis. Just a few minutes will do this trick it is supposed to prolong life of engine not harm it.

[KadeyKrogen38]

A couple of additional comments. Engines if propped correctly and in good operating condition should be able to achieve 80% of redline. If under propped and RPMs tend high the diesel governor should keep it from passing red line.

[meirriba]

I am a marine surveyor.
The running of the engine under full rpm is part of my list of things to do during survey - about 7 to 10 minutes.
It does no harm (even recommended by the manufacturers as thing to do from time to time).
You may tell the seller that it is your requirement for any further business and perform this yourself - after the full throttle run, check the engine for temperature, leaks of any liquid.
During full power operation check for if engine operates smoothly or shudders/hiccups.
I had an exact experience surveying a boat where the agent did not allow me to go full throttle. I did it anyway and the engine stalled. Later problems with fuel supply were identified.

[mogulskibum]

At least one or two "questionable" decisions got me into a situation with 4-5 ft waves, 40+ knot winds, and a strong underlying current (tide and river flow) pushing straight into some nasty submerged rocks.

There was about 15 seconds when, even with the engine wot, the vector on the GPS changed direction - we were being pushed back. That was a high pucker factor moment...

Managed to figure out how to steer with the waves a little bit, which brought sog up to a whole 0.15 to 0.25 knots, in generally the right direction (any direction away from the rocks was the right direction).

It’s amazing how long it takes to get off a lee shore when you can make less than 1/2 knot sog.

And I am damn sure glad that I could run my engine at wot for longer than a few minutes. I was probably at wot for somewhere between 45 and 75 minutes before I was able to get under the lee of another twist in the river.

Being able to run wot for an extended period of time can be important.

Until a seller would "allow" me to run the engine wot for at least 7-10 minutes, I would assume the worst, and reduce my offer price to allow for replacing the entire engine.

If he doesn't like that, then he needs to let me actually do what is necessary to figure out what, if anything, is wrong with the engine.