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BigBeakie · 20-10-2014, 03:11

Chris,

Evan did say bleeding edge and that Lithium is not ready yet for consideration on cruising boats. I just wonder why. He is very well respected for knowledge & experience on things cruising, so just wondered if he's heard things about Lithium batteries that we should know about. Maybe the longer term DOD issues or something. We all pretty much know that you need a good BMS and charge control with redundant over charge protection, and that if you choose the wrong Lithium chemistry you could burn your boat down, but those have all been well taken care of now with the experience gained. So I'm curious why he still maintains they are bleeding edge.

As to your point about cost & more to the point, the value proposition of Lithium Batts, it seems to me that when you factor in how many amps you get out of them, especially the available amps and the turnaround time from max discharge back to full charge and the number of lifetime charge cycles, they are very competitive on an amps per dollar basis. We look at solar panel pricing on a watts per dollar basis, so why not analyse the value of Lithium batteries the same way?

cwjohm · 20-10-2014, 04:05

Rob

I will tell you precisely why.

I could go over every aspect of a yacht and mount an argument why I should spend more to get quality, and I could mount an argument as to why quality would pay in the long run.

I could argue, and do regularly, that the Helia is comfortable and safe but when it comes to sailing it is pretty average, and I should opt for a better sailing boat.

I could argue that more modern sail materials are justifiable.

I could argue for Li Ion batteries.

I could argue for a better watermaker.

I could argue for this and that and that.

The list could be endless., but the problem is that by the time I add up all of the costs the availability of the boat translates to taking longer to go cruising.

A wise man once told me that the BEST boat is the boat you can afford and get out onto the water with. None of us is getting any younger.

Most people extend themselves to get the best boat they can for the money they have. Consequently, generally, Li Ion will not be in the equation, not because it is not financially justifiable, but because they do not have the money and they can get the same performance from conventional systems.

So people make these decisions every day when buying a boat, and justifications of long term viability are neither here or there as they can only afford the boat they can afford.

Better to get out cruising while they are fit and able.

I have no doubt I will equip Li Ion at some time in the future, as will many in the forum, but at the moment cost is prohibitive no matter what the justification.

**HappyMdRSailor** · 20-10-2014, 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by scarlet

wow... that is a BEAUTIFUL boat!! and loaded to the gills.. Only thing wrong I see with it is the price.

I would describe the price as being somewhere between "OUCH!!" and "BOINNNNGGGGG!!!!!"

You... Missy... Sound like a troublemaker... Please don't hold back on your next opinion...

Quote:

Originally Posted by blewett_john

My peeve, from the Newport show, is the use of slippery laminate decks on the interior of many boats. Yes, they look very nice but it is like walking on ice. What are the manufactures thinking?!
Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

1. CHEAP
2. Appeals to the McMansion crowd (i.e. non sailor)
3. CHEAP
4. Wear Longevity

**estarzinger** · 20-10-2014, 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Chris,
Evan did say bleeding edge and that Lithium is not ready yet for consideration on cruising boats. So I'm curious why he still maintains they are bleeding edge.

Mmmm. . . . I did say bleeding edge, and will explain why; but I did not say "not yet ready for consideration on cruising boats". I said some people like bleeding edge and some like completely sorted and proven. And if you are in the second category then they are not ready yet.

As to bleeding edge:

1. They are still burning up boats. I have now seen two first hand - I sailed by one this summer burning quite quickly to the waterline. And it was a $b's boat (actually his wife's boat), so there was no lack of money or attention. Something just went wrong. And another, fancy race boat in Antigua. That's just two cases I happened to see first hand recently, but Beth could pull pictures of others from the Boatus insurance files - like a competition bass boat that burned sitting on its trailer.

2. There is still quite a bit of discussion among "the experts" about charging parameters and bms specifics. And comments from the experts that various suppliers either don't know what they are doing, or are saying the wrong things for marketing purposes. It just has not all coalesced into a well understood widely used set of best practices yet.

3. When you get to the Azores (or some other cruising location) and have something go even slightly wrong (as often happens on a passage), I doubt you are going to find anyone who even slightly understands li batteries. And they may not even know they don't understand and thus for something terribly wrong (returning us to point #1). If you yourself become an expert on Li, then this is not such a problem, so long as you completely ensure no-one else ever messes with it while "fixing" something else.

4. We (cruisers) have been burned by "new battery technology" promises before. AGM's were the last "final solution", until it was discovered after they had been adapted for some time and people were having trouble with short life spans, that they really really need to be charged up to 100% quite frequently which is not normal in cruising at anchor use. There is no true "full life cycle" experience yet with Li in cruising, so who knows what surprises we are in store for.

So cost is in fact, not one of my bleeding edge concerns at all. But I would suggest that we need more proof of #4 (life cycles) to really make the financial justification work.

scarlet · 20-10-2014, 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor

You... Missy... Sound like a troublemaker... Please don't hold back on your next opinion...

MOI?!?

**HappyMdRSailor** · 20-10-2014, 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by scarlet

MOI?!?

HA HA HA....

Yes you....

I BTW have suggested your services for a spreader boot repair...

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...re-134958.html

colemj · 20-10-2014, 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Where did you hear this? There is another poster here and on the other forum we can't mention who says he has the rights to the name. There were actually 2 different people who claimed this but the other one was full of it. The legit guy actually worked at Manta and posted about a new Manta 44 that was in the design stage I believe.

Edit: It's 46' and I think the new Gems are built by Hunter. There's nothing on either site about this.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...nt-125361.html

Gemini bought the Manta powercat molds (basically free - they paid the storage bill). They wanted the sailcat molds, but those are trash - they will never be usable and it would be cheaper and easier to simply make new ones (but it is a small, old design that wouldn't sell anyway).

I don't know what Gemini plans to do with the powercat molds. Marlow wanted to get into catamarans beyond Gemini.

If Catalina are now making the Geminis, did Marlow sell Gemini to Catalina or buy Catalina? Or just using excess manufacturing there as a service?

Mark

Southern Star · 20-10-2014, 08:46

Thanks for that Dave (2 hulls) - I made sure that my wife read it as it coincides exactly with my cruising philosophy and it has bolstered my reasons for refusing her requests for a washer/dryer. And Estarzinger, thanks for the reprint of your wife's terrific article on food storage - I am sure that I read it somewhere in the past, but failed to save it.

Scarlet, is any of this causing you to rethink whether you really need central air and a washer dryer?

Brad

scarlet · 20-10-2014, 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southern Star

Thanks for that Dave (2 hulls) - I made sure that my wife read it as it coincides exactly with my cruising philosophy and it has bolstered my reasons for refusing her requests for a washer/dryer. And Estarzinger, thanks for the reprint of your wife's terrific article on food storage - I am sure that I read it somewhere in the past, but failed to save it.

Scarlet, is any of this causing you to rethink whether you really need central air and a washer dryer?

Brad

First off... happy wife.. happy life. I would SERIOUSLY rethink "refusing her request for a washer/drying".. I'm just sayin'..

As for the central air? we may wait on that to really see what it's like sailing down there... washer drying? nope.. still gtetin' one!!!

Southern Star · 20-10-2014, 09:59

Scarlet, is the lack of a washer and dryer a hardship? Yes compared to what we have at home. Of course, so is the lack of a dishwasher, various small electric food preparation appliances, a coffee maker (actually, two as we have an espresso machine), central air, a 7 person hot tub, 3 cars, nearby malls/supermarkets, multiple large flat screen TV's (the one in the saloon of our boat is only 21"), virtually unlimited storage space incluidnig multiple dressers, a large walk-in closet, etc., etc.

And who is to say that my wife will be the only one responsible for laundry and therefore the only one making this sacrifice? As I said earlier (and as highlighted by Dave), an alternative is using the washing function and then air drying as it uses much less electicity and, because of the inefficiency of the typical non-exterior-vented dryer, is virtually as efficient.

At this point my intention is to use a wonderwash and air drying for small loads of underwear, bathing suits, light tops/shirts/pants and dresses. My wife and I tried ours on one 2 week cruise and she was amazed at how well it worked. Since she likes to hand-wash her underwear (and some blouses) at home anyway, she thought it was great as it was easier than that and seemingly no more harsh on the fabric. What she wants a washer and dryer for is heavier items like towels and bedding - and I agree that handwashing those won't cut it. But that is where using only the wash cycle on a washer/dryer (or buying only a washing machine, which I am prepared to consider) can carry the day.

Either way, you can get by without the complexities, cost and noise associated with a generator so long as you don't feel compelled to have and use a dryer when underway, or under anchor.

Brad

**estarzinger** · 20-10-2014, 10:05

Washers/dryers . . . . ah . . . . sail naked . . . . seriously . . . . another thread

But honestly, how much laundry are you going to have in the tropics? A couple swim trunks and a couple tee shirts? Certainly no socks, and no underwear for me. A long pair of pants once a month for visiting officials or a particularly fancy restaurant.

scarlet · 20-10-2014, 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southern Star

Scarlet, is the lack of a washer and dryer a hardship? Yes compared to what we have at home. Of course, so is the lack of a dishwasher, various small electric food preparation appliances, a coffee maker (actually, two as we have an espresso machine), central air, a 7 person hot tub, 3 cars, nearby malls/supermarkets, multiple large flat screen TV's (the one in the saloon of our boat is only 21"), virtually unlimited storage space incluidnig multiple dressers, a large walk-in closet, etc., etc.

And who is to say that my wife will be the only one responsible for laundry and therefore the only one making this sacrifice? As I said earlier (and as highlighted by Dave), an alternative is using the washing function and then air drying as it uses much less electicity and, because of the inefficiency of the typical non-exterior-vented dryer, is virtually as efficient.

At this point my intention is to use a wonderwash and air drying for small loads of underwear, bathing suits, light tops/shirts/pants and dresses. My wife and I tried ours on one 2 week cruise and she was amazed at how well it worked. Since she likes to hand-wash her underwear (and some blouses) at home anyway, she thought it was great as it was easier than that and seemingly no more harsh on the fabric. What she wants a washer and dryer for is heavier items like towels and bedding - and I agree that handwashing those won't cut it. But that is where using only the wash cycle on a washer/dryer (or buying only a washing machine, which I am prepared to consider) can carry the day.

Either way, you can get by without the complexities, cost and noise associated with a generator so long as you don't feel compelled to have and use a dryer when underway, or under anchor.

Brad

I actually really like that idea.. use the wonder wash for your light items.. and a washer/drying for the bulky stuff. And, truly.. the bulky stuff is the issue. And I agree.. I don't need a dryer at all.. just the washer. I really don't want to have to take more than a week's worth of towels.. and bedding will need to be done weekly in order to prevent mold, etc... Good plan. would once a week wash only be that big of a drain on your total energy consumption?

Sand crab · 20-10-2014, 10:57

Scarlet, I know you live in the states now but were you originally a Brit or Commonwealth citizen? Something in your posts tells me you were/are.

Southern Star · 20-10-2014, 11:03

Scarlet, there are some very energy efficient small washing machines that, if you have a sufficient battery bank/solar panels etc., won't require a generator. Out of interest (as I haven't toured new cats in several years), how many of the new boats in the 40 foot range had provision for a washer/dryer?

Brad