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Old 29-04-2014, 20:43   #1
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New Manta 46 catamaran in design/development

Well, we were all taken for a ride by that guy in North Carolina who said he bought the Manta molds and was restarting the company. As you know, that was all a fairy tale and/or delusional.

This time it is a lot more real. I recently communicated with the principal guy involved with the original (and real) Manta project and company, and he told me he has been working with the naval architect Cortland Steck in designing and specifying a new Manta 46 catamaran.

He said that design briefs and drawings will be published soon in several magazines and websites, including water sailing">Blue Water Sailing, Cruising World and Multihull world.

He gave me some basics about it:
- 46' long (obviously)
- Long, narrow hulls - hull length/beam ratio=12
- wave-piercing bows
- LAR keels with centerboards (4'/8')
- 41" bridgedeck clearance
- 25,000lbs displacement
- 1,250sf sail area on a spreader-less rig
- Self-tacking jib and all sail handling done by a single person at the helm (like the original Manta)
- Retractable bow sprits in both hulls
- Like the original Manta, the target market is a cruising couple with occasional guests. Similarly, the boat will be built for offshore cruising.
- Also like the original Manta, the boat will come standard loaded with equipment and other things like full bimini, cockpit enclosure, etc.

He said he wants to bring it in around $750,000 USD and aim it right between the charter cat designs and the take-no-prisoners performance designs. If so, this will be a pretty good performance cat (won't outrun an Outremer, but will do circles around a Lagoon/FP and will probably be in the current Catana arena), that will have more standard amenities than almost all other boats have available as options and will not require a crew to operate.

Just like the original Manta design! It will be interesting to see the rest of the info when it is published.

Mark
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Old 29-04-2014, 22:14   #2
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Re: New Manta 46 catamaran in design/development

Sounds very much like a Freeflow 46 specs to me.

Designs - FreeFlow 46

Kelsall Catamarans - Ballotta Catamarans - Custom built catamarans - Prices

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Old 31-05-2014, 14:16   #3
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Re: New Manta 46 catamaran in design/development

Bluewater Sailing magazine has published a design brief on the Manta 46. It is supposed to be on their on-line site, but I don't have a subscription so can't access it. Does anyone subscribe to this?

I do have some pictures of the design from the Facebook page:

Mark
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Old 31-05-2014, 16:30   #4
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Re: New Manta 46 catamaran in design/development

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Bluewater Sailing magazine has published a design brief on the Manta 46. It is supposed to be on their on-line site, but I don't have a subscription so can't access it. Does anyone subscribe to this?



I do have some pictures of the design from the Facebook page:



Mark

I really like the original Manta, but man that is not what I would even consider in the same family as the original. Not really pretty in my eyes but maybe functional.....or maybe I'm going blind!


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Old 31-05-2014, 17:09   #5
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Re: New Manta 46 catamaran in design/development

While I agree that I love the original Manta lines, as well as all of LeRogues designs, they are very dated and not the type that sell anymore. I don't think there was much consideration in keeping that look in the new design, and don't think it is wrong to call it a "Manta". After all, what do the new Lagoon's or FP's have in common with their originals?

This new boat has several "check boxes" hit - very high bridgedeck clearance, boards AND LAR keels, 12:1 hull/beam ratio, moderate displacement, functional hardtop and davits, easy sail rig with appreciable sail area, well-appointed interior arrangements, etc.

So, what should a design that realistically hits all of those check boxes look like? I don't know myself, but Lagoon and FP neither hit those checkboxes nor look good to me. Outremer, et all don't hit very many of those check boxes, although they look better. As someone else mentioned, Free Flow comes very close, yet looks very similar to this one.

Mark
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Old 31-05-2014, 17:34   #6
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Re: New Manta 46 catamaran in design/development

Looks a bit like an Antares to me...which also checks off a lot of boxes (at a price of course).
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Old 31-05-2014, 17:48   #7
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Re: New Manta 46 catamaran in design/development

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Looks a bit like an Antares to me...which also checks off a lot of boxes (at a price of course).
Agreed although the Antares is a somewhat dated design now. What year was the hull designed? The Antares concepts of centre located motor, shaft drive, tankage under soles, protected cockpit /helm are excellent.

The Freeflow and potentially this new Manta I suspect have improved on the concept.

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Old 31-05-2014, 20:06   #8
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Re: New Manta 46 catamaran in design/development

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
While I agree that I love the original Manta lines, as well as all of LeRogues designs, they are very dated and not the type that sell anymore. I don't think there was much consideration in keeping that look in the new design, and don't think it is wrong to call it a "Manta". After all, what do the new Lagoon's or FP's have in common with their originals?

This new boat has several "check boxes" hit - very high bridgedeck clearance, boards AND LAR keels, 12:1 hull/beam ratio, moderate displacement, functional hardtop and davits, easy sail rig with appreciable sail area, well-appointed interior arrangements, etc.

So, what should a design that realistically hits all of those check boxes look like? I don't know myself, but Lagoon and FP neither hit those checkboxes nor look good to me. Outremer, et all don't hit very many of those check boxes, although they look better. As someone else mentioned, Free Flow comes very close, yet looks very similar to this one.

Mark

Do you have a link to the specs as all I have to go on is the pics. It seems to have a relatively narrow overall beam to length. Also the center of gravity seems to be rather high, which coupled with the possible narrow beam would mean a bad motion at sea. Also with a 12:1 hull/ beam ratio I hope they do all they can do to save weight. Maybe all epoxy construction and an LPU paint job rather than heavy gelcoat? As I said, really hard to tell from the pics.


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Old 31-05-2014, 23:23   #9
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Re: New Manta 46 catamaran in design/development

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
Do you have a link to the specs as all I have to go on is the pics. It seems to have a relatively narrow overall beam to length. Also the center of gravity seems to be rather high, which coupled with the possible narrow beam would mean a bad motion at sea. Also with a 12:1 hull/ beam ratio I hope they do all they can do to save weight. Maybe all epoxy construction and an LPU paint job rather than heavy gelcoat? As I said, really hard to tell from the pics.


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If the Antares and FF46 are anything to go on the tankage will be centrally located under the cabin sole to help that out.
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Old 01-06-2014, 06:44   #10
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Re: New Manta 46 catamaran in design/development

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
Do you have a link to the specs as all I have to go on is the pics. It seems to have a relatively narrow overall beam to length. Also the center of gravity seems to be rather high, which coupled with the possible narrow beam would mean a bad motion at sea. Also with a 12:1 hull/ beam ratio I hope they do all they can do to save weight. Maybe all epoxy construction and an LPU paint job rather than heavy gelcoat? As I said, really hard to tell from the pics.


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Like I said, the design brief with all the specs, etc has been published in Bluewater Sailing magazine on-line. However, one needs to be a subscriber to access it. I am not, but I am trying to find someone who can get me the info from it.

Mark
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Old 01-06-2014, 14:39   #11
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Re: New Manta 46 catamaran in design/development

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If the Antares and FF46 are anything to go on the tankage will be centrally located under the cabin sole to help that out.
I am sure the center of gravity of any of the flybridge designs produced in this size range, Lagoon, FP, etc is much higher.
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Old 02-06-2014, 09:30   #12
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Re: New Manta 46 catamaran in design/development

Did you see the expected draft numbers anywhere?

The Manta 42 'Oasis' is presently tied up three slips down from us and I was just out yesterday admiring the aluminum hard top and radar arch work. In fact I think I will be modeling what i want for our old catalac along those lines.
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Old 02-06-2014, 09:51   #13
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Re: New Manta 46 catamaran in design/development

I don't have the draft numbers, but note that it has a centerboard, so the LAR draft will probably be moderate.

Regarding looking like the Manta of old - while it does not resemble the design lines of the old Mantas (with the exception of that arched composite cross beam and compression beam), it appears like it is resembling closely the design functionality of the old ones. For example, the hard top / radar arch with enclosure, windshield and good visibility, lots of room for solar, main sheet out of the cockpit, dinghy davits, etc. Also, all sail controls going to an electric winch at the helm to allow for complete single-handed control and full cruising operation by a couple. I expect it will also look like the Mantas of old in build quality, quality of electrical system, large well-insulated reefer and freezer, large battery capacity and charging systems, etc.

Manta got these things more right than any other manufacturer in the past, so I expect they will in the future. I know we own one, so that statement may not be believable, but I urge you to go check out the one on the dock and see what you think.

Mark

Edit: I just saw I had the draft numbers in the OP - 4'/8'.
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Old 02-06-2014, 16:22   #14
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Re: New Manta 46 catamaran in design/development

Mark, please don't take this as some sort of attack... it is an attempt to learn something about modern cat design.

Question is, where is all the weight coming from? A target of 25,000 seems awfully high to me. Our 46 foot mono has a lightship displacement of 9 1/2 tonnes, and that includes 4 tonnes of the dreaded lead ballast and all the usual equipment. So, I'm curious... is it from the basic hull structure, just the huge footprint, a heavy rig, "stuff" included in the fitout, or what?

Incidentally, I agree that the design goals sound like a useful sort of vessel... ticks a lot of my cruising boxes too.

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Old 02-06-2014, 17:27   #15
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Re: New Manta 46 catamaran in design/development

Jim, I don't have any involvement with this boat or much more knowledge or info than I have posted here, so I can't answer that question. I certainly can't construe it as an attack - my interest is solely in owning a boat with the same brand name! I can't even tell you that the weight I listed is correct - and note that it is a design that has not been built yet. I can point out that the published weights for similar sized Lagoons, Leopards and FP's are the same or heavier (the Lagoon 45 weighs 38,000lbs, as does the Leopard 48!). The FreeFlow linked to above is ~22,000lbs, as is the Catana 47.

So these weights appear to be common for this size production boat - even for some of those considered "performance". And that is if you believe the published weights...

If this one is fitted out like the original Manta's were, there will be considerable weight in gear and appropriate quality wiring, electrics, plumbing, etc - as well as solid surface countertops and the like. The original Mantas came standard with generator, Corian countertops, inverter/chargers, fuel polishing system, watermaker, washer/dryer, isolation transformers, 480W solar, 11' dinghy with 15hp 4-stroke, bow and stern washdowns, and much more. I don't think any other builder has included these as standard items - and certainly not in their published weights!

One example of weight: our little catamaran has 500lbs of wiring in it (yes, I have actually counted the amount), as well as another 500lbs of batteries! Manta did not do anything cheap or careless on their boats - in the case of wiring, they stuck to 3% voltage drop which means lots of long runs of 10, 6, 2, 2/0 and 4/0 AWG DC wiring, and all the AC wiring is mostly 10/3. Wiring is a buggaboo on catamarans because you need so much of it simply to connect equipment on one end of the "H" to equipment on the opposite end - winding up/over/down the entire boat. Monos get by easy here with linear runs.

If this one is fitted out similarly as standard equipment, then the published weight probably takes all of the above into account like it did on the original Manta.

Mark
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