Lagoon cats now on discount...

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by crayiii

Looks like it was around April 30th

Why didn't he include that info in his videos so people knew that Lagoon wasn't ignoring the issue?

Dont know, but you could post on his channel asking for a clarification before just assuming bad intent.

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Dont know, but you could post on his channel asking for a clarification before just assuming bad intent.

I'm not going to post something on YT. Regardless of his intentions, he posted a number of videos making it seem like Lagoon was ignoring this after he received that phonecall.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by crayiii

I'm not going to post something on YT. Regardless of his intentions, he posted a number of videos making it seem like Lagoon was ignoring this after he received that phonecall.

I think you should take your accusations back. They are outrageous and 100% unfounded.

Edit: also, all that talk about loosing value but no talk at all about potentially crossing oceans with cracked bulkheads, it blows my mind to attack someone exposing design errors for ocean going sailboats.

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I think you should take your accusations back. They are outrageous and 100% unfounded.

Edit: also, all that talk about loosing value but no talk at all about potentially crossing oceans with cracked bulkheads, it blows my mind to attack someone exposing design errors for ocean going sailboats.

What is my accusation? I said, Lagoon told him they would fix this issue before he posted a bunch of those videos. What isn't true about that?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by crayiii

What is my accusation? I said, Lagoon told him they would fix this issue before he posted a bunch of those videos. What isn't true about that?

You said he was told that back in April. That is very different from a couple days ago.

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

You said he was told that back in April. That is very different from a couple days ago.

Really? If I prove it, will you apologize to me?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by crayiii

Really? If I prove it, will you apologize to me?

Well from what I see he posted that Lagoon were getting together with dealers to set something up and that owners should notify their closest Lagoon dealership to lodge their claim and prove legitimacy.
What's your gripe.. he spread the news with that post, the videos were about the repairs he was carrying out..

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Well from what I see he posted that Lagoon were getting together with dealers to set something up and that owners should notify their closest Lagoon dealership to lodge their claim and prove legitimacy.
What's your gripe.. he spread the news with that post, the videos were about the repairs he was carrying out..

Haha

I guess my main gripe is that out of the 14 bulkhead videos he released, he knew about Lagoon's commitment to repair before releasing 11 or 12 of them at least.

In some of those videos, he really said some pretty negative things about the brand not doing the right thing. Again, this was released after he had that phonecall.

It just seems disingenuous to me.

Read some of the comments on his videos and, remembering he already had the phonecall, see the opportunity he had to clarify the situation.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Well from what I see he posted that Lagoon were getting together with dealers to set something up and that owners should notify their closest Lagoon dealership to lodge their claim and prove legitimacy.
What's your gripe.. he spread the news with that post, the videos were about the repairs he was carrying out..

His gripe seems pretty clear to me, "he [Colin] posted a number of videos making it seem like Lagoon was ignoring this after he received that phonecall." He then showed a post from Colin back in April very clearly showing that Lagoon was not ignoring this and Colin was well aware of that.

Add to that a poster here pretty much flat out called him a liar and demanded he withdraw his statement, saying his statement was "outrageous and 100% unfounded"....then crickets when it turns out the @crayiii was telling the truth. I gotta say I think @crayiii is being pretty chill considering.

[CatNewBee]

All of you, relax.

Except the hurricane trashed and written off Lagoons, like Collins, not one get any trouble with the rig, despite having failed bulkheads, who most of the owners not even noticed. Some here and on FB still try to stir fear and bash around at an minor issue.

Lagoon looked at the issue and considered, it is safe to continue sailing with the cracked bulkhead until a solution is worked out. No one, except Collin, got into distress because of the issue yet. In the end it is just one of many small peaces of plywood in the construction behind a door frame.

Lagoon is stepping up, fixing boats with normal use including charter AND individually advising on repairs / recertifying of trashed boats from groundings or storms to make them seaworthy again.

Neither Collin nor Lagoon caused the outrage, it was some of you, over exaggerating the issue, bashing either Collin for speaking out and devaluating your assest (owners, sellers) or Lagoon to devaluate the brand and drive the prices down (prospect buyers, trolls).

Most concerned owners just behaved professionally, approached Lagoons dealers and Service centers and got their boats fixed, or are in process of fixing them. The early adopters as always got the experimental fixes, until there is an established and least invasive way to strengthen the structure sufficiently.

The problem is, the internet does not forget, the issue was resolved in maybe 6 months, but it will affect all Lagoonies for decades.

Was it worth it? Time will tell.

Lagoons are great sailing and liveaboard catamarans, many if not most have crossed oceans and handled storms and severe weather at sea. They are safe to sail and comfortable to live. We have crossed the Atlantic in one and dodged some stormy weather in the Med. Many others too.

It is necessary to moderate and stick to the facts. There is an issue, the issue will be fixed. It is not life threatening, but needs to be addressed. That's it.

[CatNewBee]

Here is a post from Cat Impi on the Lagoon owners group in FB, worth sharing

450 BULKHEAD - pleased to see a 'Finale' Colin - [emoji106]

I was asked to share a comment I made in response elsewhere by an owner who was upset - his post was taken down and along with that went the comment, however some folks have asked me to share the content of my reply to bring another perspective to this.

Before I start I’d like to say that my family / my son involved in Catamaran sales do not sell Lagoons - their competitor does.
I too do not own a Lagoon 450 - I own a Lagoon 440 so I’m really trying to come up for the sailing community in general here.
My family / I do not benefit from this at all - my boat is not for sale - I have no intention of selling it - I sail and live on the oceans 24/7 and have been sailing the same boat around the world full time for 10 years now - It’s a fantastic boat but we have done modifications and so should most who buy production cats.

I have not been following closely the groups chatting about all these issues but I did get a number of calls asking me for answers as someone who has sailed a Lagoon for years.

I was saying that it saddened me to see how many folks are fighting with each other over the bulkhead issue around the 450. It’s upset many who feel the video’s have brought their boats down in value and on the other hand it’s made others happy to have the exposure so things would happen at factory level - and then there are some who use it for their own purposes.

I’ve been chatting to the ‘Lagoon Boys’ quietly behind the scenes and here’s some of the things that came to light - I’m actually not even sure I should be sharing this but it may be necessary.

Lagoon have been having their own struggles recently which extend far beyond the 450 bulkhead debacle.
Colin may have shared this in his video somewhere - I’m not sure as I haven’t been following them recently but here’s the thing:

I’m not sure how many people are aware ‘Lagoon’ got caught up in an internet hack that crashed their systems for a long time. A ransom was demanded and the group declined to pay the ransom because it would set a precedence for them to do it to others.

As a result they have been offline from regular communications network within their own group whilst trying to sort this out at a cost of millions of Euros to the company.
This has made it extremely difficult even for owners to order spare parts etc. and has only come back on line recently.

Add to this mess the whole Covid issue and Lagoon were unable to appoint teams to travel around the world to investigate and rectify the bulkhead issue (which is their usual route in the past) but I was told they are ‘working on a fix’.

In the meantime agents / dealers were told to check the 450 issue and report back and rectify what looked to be genuine cases. The agents / dealers were paid by Lagoon to do the inspections and rectifications and I believe this has been done by some and dealers were paid well for it.

I was told Lagoon put out a statement to their dealers that they considered the bulkhead break not to be a safety issue and that owners could keep sailing. That’s a brave statement but they never the less felt comfortable enough about it. They also said the break would not bring the mast down or cause the boat to fall apart. ‘Keep sailing while we investigate and come up with a fix’.

The issue if I understood this correctly, was that some agents may be better at dealing with this than others, but let’s not judge them too soon as Covid could have affected them differently depending on their countries lock down issues.

In the meanwhile I’ve been enquiring about surveyors coming across other brands of catamarans that have suffered bulkhead failure and it would surprise people to know how across the board in production catamarans, this has been discovered. Granted, the 450 bulkhead failure may be more prominent than most catamarans but there are plenty of owners who don’t even realise this is an issue on their boats and should be part of an inspection in general maintenance - we sure do it on our boat.
This is not a new problem - we actually did some mods of our own when our boat was new because of the type of sailing we would embark on. Lagoon are aware of our bulkhead discussion going back many years.
When we were at the factory back in the day, the person running the production line told me they designed the outer sections of the bulkhead to separate from the hull without tearing the hull clear through, but that the main part of bulkhead would be strong enough to keep sailing without the mast dropping. I guess one could think of it as a ‘crumple zone’ in a motor car.
However, we opted to rather strengthen the outer sides and have the entire bulkhead as a sturdy fix.

Regarding the 450 bulkhead issue, I suggested the problem most owners are facing with the company is that there is no official statement being released as to how the company would deal with this.
It was put to me that Lagoon do this through their dealers and I suggested perhaps this is the problem - owners need a statement from Lagoon itself.

Some owners are not happy with Colins videos, however I do think he has done a good job of it whilst perhaps it passed a ‘tipping point’ for some.
Colin, you will know we’ve chatted about a few things ‘Lagoon’ and I certainly admire the work done on a boat that was recovered from hurricane damage, and whilst the work is to be commended I’m also quite aware that a hurricane destroyed catamaran has now become the ‘measure of most things failed’ on the Lagoon 450.
I do understand that some 450’s out there have developed issues without enduring a hurricane but the hurricane damaged 450 is now the measure of 450’s in general.

We need to remember that catamarans are wide platforms crossing rough oceans sometimes - bulkheads are going to be taking a knock somewhere along the line - as mentioned before many owners are oblivious to this.

I’m also of the opinion that some owners sail their boats incorrectly and this can be tough for manufacturers. For example, when sailing through a storm in following seas, with sails pulling the boat through the water, I’ve observed that as the boat surfs down one wave and into the back of another wave, the inertia from the boat being ‘stopped’ while the rig keeps going forward is massive especially on the bulkhead. Add to this the boat comes off a wave at an angle and makes contact with the wave ahead of it - would cause the boat to twist (load distribution over the bulkhead is more ‘pin pointed’ at that moment). For this reason we always engage motors in heavy conditions to help push and drive the weight of the boat through a wave ahead of it and as means to reduce inertia by the rig.
As an honest owner, ask yourself if you actually do this. Do you reef appropriately, do you ‘help your boat in serious weather conditions’ - do you deploy warps sufficient enough to keep the boat speed relevant to the sea state.
There are many things I can think of that can impact on bulkheads - slamming into waves included because this causes the ‘underside’ to flex ahead of and behind ‘hard points’ in the hull eg. where the bulkhead is fixed upon it.
It has to be a nightmare for manufacturers to actually discover what caused a failure - seamanship and sailor experience is massive in protecting the integrity of a catamaran.

But back to the drama around the bulkheads on the 450 - recently a very concerned owner and I were chatting as they sometimes charter their boat for an income.
I suggested they should just look into it carefully and see what work would be required - we chatted about resin types and few odds and ends and whilst they had a break in the bulkhead it could be a relatively easy fix - they certainly did not go through a cyclone.
They were so happy to find they could get it sorted quite quickly and were telling me they were expecting so much worse because of all the drama around this - sent me some photos and must say they did a great job and how some have made way too much of this. They did point out that the factory could have done a better install so I’m not being one-sided for the manufacture - just trying to get more balance into all the dramatised comments and showmanship going on around this.
I’m not saying there aren’t 450’s that need a lot of attention, but again - how was the boat sailed, hauled, rigging etc. etc. not to mention a poor design.
In my opinion it’s a very valid point for a manufacturer to ask these questions especially if he relies on his naval architects design - he needs to investigate it as a whole.
There may also be legal liability toward the designer whom is contracted by the manufacturer for example. This would be a tough investigation during Covid times.
The good news is that it can be rectified and seems now with Lagoons help which is great. Perhaps there was an insurance requirement that has been met - who knows but good they are finally behind the owners. It’s a pity Lagoon as a company did not make a public statement about how they were going to tackle this but I guess lessons are being learned.

The owner of the 450 who repaired his bulkhead in ‘quick time’ ( I think one week but still some panels to be put back) actually wrote to say how ’silent’ the boat is and is proud their boat is sorted - I do believe with the fix the lagoon 450 is a great boat.

So Lagoon 450 owners, hang in there, keep your pricing up there - this is still a very desirable boat .

I really hope as a sailing community we will keep supporting each other and encourage each other to be part of a happy cruising community. For those with ‘big minds’ work with Lagoon on this - I’m hoping there are lessons learned and Colin has probably been a great inspiration for manufacturers in general to pay attention to the details. One of the ‘Lagoon guys’ told me that with social media these days, their ability to remedy a situation is slower than the speed of social media - it’s been an eye opener for them for sure.

I hope for less drama, more sailing and a beautiful sailing community
Cheers guys - hope this brings some other perspective to the table.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by crayiii

Really? If I prove it, will you apologize to me?

I’m not really sure what you are saying anymore, but feel that I may got you wrong so yes, my sincere apologies.

To get this clear: you posted that screenshot showing that Colin shared this on April 30…. but then you also claim that he kept that phone call secret until he released the video made during the phone call.

It can not be both. But now that you post that screenshot which would prove your claim that he did not tell earlier is wrong, I must have misunderstood you.

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I’m not really sure what you are saying anymore, but feel that I may got you wrong so yes, my sincere apologies.

To get this clear: you posted that screenshot showing that Colin shared this on April 30…. but then you also claim that he kept that phone call secret until he released the video made during the phone call.

It can not be both. But now that you post that screenshot which would prove your claim that he did not tell earlier is wrong, I must have misunderstood you.

Yeah, I can tell this is hard for you.

He didn't post that statement on YouTube. He kept his YouTube message as Lagoon was not helping for months after they were helping.

Back a couple pages someone posted one of his videos about boat owners are angry or something and talked about Lagoon not helping. This was a couple months after that phonecall.

His Patreon people come out in force when someone calls him out. I guess the force is strong with that one.

[jmh2002]

It's commonly accepted that most YouTube video series are not in real time since it takes time to collate, edit, produce, and publish.

If I was personally affected I would be tracking this bulkhead issue on the various Lagoon forums, facebook, etc, so I would have been made aware of the situation when Colin posted on 30 April and no doubt thereafter there were various other communications by relevant parties too.

If I'm a casual observer then I'm seeing it now on his YouTube.

I don't see a problem with this.

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

It's commonly accepted that most YouTube video series are not in real time since it takes time to collate, edit, produce, and publish.

If I was personally affected I would be tracking this bulkhead issue on the various Lagoon forums, facebook, etc, so I would have been made aware of the situation when Colin posted on 30 April and no doubt thereafter there were various other communications by relevant parties too.

If I'm a casual observer then I'm seeing it now on his YouTube.

I don't see a problem with this.

I guess I just have a different opinion on it. Doesn't mean I think I'm right and everyone else is wrong. I'm just trying to see it from other points of view.

People say how he has done a great service bringing this issue to light with his videos but it would seem that Lagoon had already implemented a plan before most of his videos were even released.

To me, it seems opportunistic and disingenuous to release those videos without noting that Lagoon was stepping up. Just a note in the description. Why make it seem like there was all that drama with Lagoon?

Well, at least he didn't make the final video a pay per view!