Lagoon 450... Am I crazy singlehanding?

[Rapanui]

I forget his name but there was an Australian with a Lagoon 4XX who had a duplicate set of engine controls installed at the stern to make it easier to med berth stern to, which seemed like a neat solution for a flybridge cat. Also good for going alongside quays and pontoons as you only need to drop a nearby stern line on a dock cleat and gently power forward to lock the boat in place while you sort out bow line and springs.
Mostly, you can berth with the helm midships using just using engine differential thrust.
There are lot of big cats doing skippered charters in Croatia, and they often stern moor single handed, but there is usually a marinello on the dock to take lines.
Practice a lot on deserted docks and deploy enough large fenders to completely protect you and your would be neighbours.

[sailon46]

Mixman1, it is going to be a learning curve like all new boats are, how steep is your question. That depends on you take it easy out there, plan everything in advance and you can do it.
Ernie on the Mary Jane

[SteveSadler]

While single handed can be done, the mainsail is huge and handling it on a flybridge dangerous. In mast furling makes it easy for my wife to furl or reef it by herself from the cockpit. On our 49' mono of course. Our insurance also requires 3 experienced crew for passages.

[Sand crab]

There's a company in Florida that builds hardtop biminis for the L450 and other boats. They are made to support one or more people and have integrated ladders so sail management with one of these would be easier I think.

[CalmSeasQuest]

As previously mentioned, you should also inquire with your insurer. I was surprised to find my insurance policy excludes single-handed operations.

[b_rodwell]

I am qualified to contribute to this debate. I had a Lagoon 400 and sailed it half way around the world in 6 years. (Don't mention how I stopped). Key points are:

• We never had more than 45 knots
  I could do all the sail handling by myself and mostly did
  I don't remember ever going forward in inclement weather (say over 25 knots)
  I had roller furling on the genoa
  For 1 and 2 reefs the lines led back to the helm station
  I don't remember ever using the 3rd reef
  All the reefing lines were as supplied by Lagoon. You could make reefing even easier by using 2 lines for each reef and using dyneema with conventional tails. You can also get a Lagoon with in-mast mainsail reefing.
  Almost always used 2 people when anchoring. I anchored once by myself and de-anchored once by myself. That was messy but not a show stopper. If you installed remote wireless engine controls there would be no problems.
  When approaching a marina I would call ahead and tell them I was old, frail and very inexperienced. I told them I needed lotsa marinareos for docking. It almost always worked. In Santa Marta they sent 5 marinareos to help me and Lainie! Very occasionally I could not raise the marina on VHF. In that case I would not go into the marina if the wind was above 4 knots.
  I found that insurance was useless so did not have it apart from 3rd party property insurance.
  You will get tired on long passages but it does not sound like there will be a lot of that for you.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Brian

[sailingchiro]

When it comes to aviation and boats, the bigger the vessel, the more future the helmsman must think. When it comes to getting to a bigger vessel, the more the helmsman must think into the future. I will tell you, the first line on my smaller catamaran is the midship springline on the leeward side (typically in my slip). If that line is on, I can control the ship with throttles set while I attach the other docklines. Plenty of fenders on leeward side. Anchoring, no problem.

When I say, you must stay ahead of the machine, you must anticipate the pressure on the rig during gusts and storms. The 45 is a big rig, Catching a 40-50 kts blow with full canvas out is not a good thing. Singlehanding means staying conservative. BUt, on the other hand, with that vessel, you should have no problem gaining short term crew including myself. CAll me if you need a hand.

[Mixman1]

Love all the info and opinions. Both good and bad. Helps me form a better decision. If I could find a lagoon 42 outfitted with my needs in the price range I need, that would be the boat for me. Unfortunately they are still too new to find a great deal. There are tons of 450's on the market and pretty flexible negotiating as well.

I am still very interested in the Insurance issues with single handing. Anyone else come across this? Only on passages of a certain distance? Or at all times?
For instance, if you singlehanded from the slip to the lift for a haul out and something happened, would they exclude their coverage? Seems like a big issue for a lot of people if they aren't aware of it.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Mixman1

I am still very interested in the Insurance issues with single handing. Anyone else come across this? Only on passages of a certain distance? Or at all times?
For instance, if you singlehanded from the slip to the lift for a haul out and something happened, would they exclude their coverage? Seems like a big issue for a lot of people if they aren't aware of it.

It is a pretty standard exclusion clause usually with a time limit.

ie: the vessel must not be single handed for 18 hours without a break of 6 hours; or not for more than 24 consecutive hours.

Not sure how an insurer would view a claim in the 19th or 25th hour if a passage was slower than expected, you arrive in a marina and crash into a very expensive superyacht. It could be viewed as a valid reason to not pay out that would be hard to argue.

If there are specific circumstance where you need to make a long passage single handed then discussing it with the insurer in advance would be in order.

[b_rodwell]

This is a side point but never ever singlehand from a slip to a haul out. It is dangerous and not necessary. There are always people around that will help for free.

Cheers

Brian

[rom]

Originally Posted by b_rodwell

Almost always used 2 people when anchoring

I sometimes allow one of my guest to help me. It takes about twice the time. As for the flybridge, I will access the port deck twice as fast as the other guy on his L450S would (we might be even to port bow). I mostly agree with the rest of your post.

[Barra]

Time for a reality check. Single handing is not the same a short handed sailing for one very simple reason - if you go over the side offshore you are dead.

All these guys saying hey just stand on a hard bimini on top of a flybridge to manhandle a mainsail the size of a 450 havnt thought this through. Yes you can tie on but at that height it's very unstable offshore and you are asking for trouble and a nasty fall.

Having singlhanded a 42 foot cat offshore I would say yeah go for it but definitely NOT a flybridge version. Bulkhead helm is good but the best by far for singlehanding are the twin aft helms. Easy docking and tieing on at the helm is as natural a thing as on a twin helm mono - singlhanding you just do it whereas on a bulkhead it's tempting not to bother after long periods

If there's alot of singlehanding in your future I would take a long look at catana etc.

[Mixman1]

Originally Posted by b_rodwell

This is a side point but never ever singlehand from a slip to a haul out. It is dangerous and not necessary. There are always people around that will help for free.

Cheers

Brian

I only meant that as a crude example. Obviously that situation would be silly not to get a hand to help out.

I have no intention of doing any long passages singlehanded. Just curious what the insurers say about the duration limits and such. I guess I will find out when I start getting quotes. This forum is always my first go to spot for information gathering. That way I am not blindsided by things later.

[b_rodwell]

Hey Mr ROM

How do you go about anchoring single handed? I know it can be done but how do you do it? Here is why I find it hard to understand. It is all about anchoring in a harbour that you have never been in before. That happens a lot in the cruising I used to do. This is how I would anchor.

Firstly if we have any guests aboard I tell them (politely) to stay in the one place and don't talk to me. I sit on the princess seat at the front on the port side. Lainie is on the helm which is also on the port side. Lainie calls the depth continuously as we look for a spot. The anchorage is crowded. Mostly I can see the bottom and importantly where the weed is and where it is not. I review all the boats around me and determine which are on anchor and those that are moored. I direct Lainie to the where I would prefer to drop. Lainie maneuvers the boat to approach the spot slowly and pointing into the wind. Lainie is still calling the depth. I keep watching the other boats but also now start watching the bottom. I am looking for where-there-is-not-weed. I call stop and reverse to Lainie. She does so and keeps calling the depth. I call drop it and let out XX metres. Lainie marks the spot on the chart plotter and on Anchor Watch on the Ipad. Then she lets the chain out.

We wait till the boat has settled. I check how we are hanging vis-a-vis the other boats. All OK. I call idle both in reverse. I check the transits; Lainie keeps her eyes glued on the Lat/Long (she is watching the 3rd decimal of the minutes). I call a series (say 3) of 'give it a more'. We both wait and do our respective watches. Finally I say 'stress it'. Lainie gives it 3/4 throttle on boat engines in reverse. I call 'you're fine, you're fine'. She calls 'I agree' (this is important). Lainie puts both engines in neutral. I go to the chain and fit the bridle. I call 'another 7m'. Lainie does so. I fit the chain hook and call 'done'. Lainie calls to me 'Black ball up' and turns off the engines, radio and instruments. Lainie covers the instruments and takes the external VHF microphone below.

I come into the cockpit and have a beer.



This is all really easy when you get into a pattern.

The key thing that I don't know how to do single handed is to steer the boat through a crowded anchorage and pick the best spot to drop at the same time. I can't do that accurately from the helming position on my boat. Getting it right to 5m is important. From the Princess seat it is very easy to do. From there you can see all the other boats and how they relate to you.

Cheers

Brian

[contrail]

You will note that most everyone agrees that the sailing, with foresight and preparation, is not that big a challenge. You will also note that many who talk about singlehanding add a proviso about docking, mooring, anchoring, and so forth. To me, those are precisely the things that determine whether a boat is a good one for singlehanding. Lines on the mast or in the cockpit, doesn't really matter. I would go further and specify "without shoreside assistance," because there are many places where you will have to do that. And that really thins the herd, particularly with high windage boats, specifically fly bridge ones. FWIW, I singlehand my Leopard 45 on a regular basis, dock moor and anchor (and the reverse) and have done this for years on my boat, a previous boat, and many others. You can almost always figure out an easy way to handle the sheets, halyards and other lines. It's the docking, undocking, anchoring, upping the anchor, etc, that can be very easy or almost impossible. If you look at the other posts, you will see that this is an issue, even though it may only be mentioned in a back-handed way. So, for me, the L450 would not suit, at any price, and I know them well. By the way, handling the anchor from a cockpit remote assumes that nothing goes awry that you won't realize until its very hard to remedy, and that IS going to happen. You need to be at the windlass when you are using something of that power.



Personally, I don't particularly like flybridge boats in bad weather and for other reasons, but those are personal preferences based on my own experience. Yours might be different.


And, yes, insurance companies are very opinionated when it comes to singlehanding! And, unless you are experienced, even doublehanding, for anything other than short distances. I don't really think it makes sense, but they make the rules. I have turned down many an insurer for just this reason.