Expected costs of a 9 year old Lagoon 400

[chakil]

Originally Posted by stevensuf

3-5k




sorry way way off

You are a great guy!! Thank you !!
Thats the answer I have been looking for

[fivecapes]

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...an-152550.html

This was the original thread where your estimates came from, suggest you read it.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by chakil

I dont agree , I just found a list in terms of years , What do you think?

Port Engine ............... $20,000 (15 years) (25 years)
Replace Starboard Engine .......... $20,000 (15 years) (25 years)
Replace Spars ..................... $25,000 (20 years) (40+ years)
Replace Standing Rigging .......... $10,000 (7.5 years) (10 - 15 years)
Replace Running Rigging ........... $5,000 (5 years) (10 years)
Replace Lifelines ................. $1,000 (7.5 years) (15 years)
Replace Working Sails ............. $6,000 (7.5 years) (10 years)
Replace Stack Pack ................ $1,500 (5 years) (10 years)
Replace Gennaker/Code Zero/Furler . $7,500 (15 years)
Replace Ground Tackle ............. $3,000 (7.5 years) (10 years)
Replace Fenders ................... $1,500 (10 years)
Install Solar Panels .............. $6,000 (15 years)
Replace Batteries/Cables .......... $4,000 (7.5 years) (20 years)
Replace Bilge Pumps ............... $2,000 (7.5 years)
Replace Hoses, Plumbing, ...Seacocks, Through-Hulls ........ $5,000 (15 years) Replace All Cushions .............. $5,000 (15 years)
Replace Toilet/Hoses (Port) ....... $2,000 (15 years) (10 years)
Replace Toilet/Hoses (Starboard) .. $2,000 (15 years)
Replace Offshore Life Raft ........ $4,000 (10 years) (20 years)
Install/Replace Watermaker ........ $10,000 (15 years)
Replace Basic Electronics ......... $6,000 (10 years) (15 years)
Replace Autopilot ................. $5,000 (15 years)
Install/Replace Radar ............. $3,000 (15 years)
Install/Replace SSB ............... $5,000 (15 years)
Replace Fridge & Freezer .......... $4,000 (15 years)
Replace Stove ..................... $2,000 (15 years)
Replace Windlass .................. $2,500 (15 years)
Rewire Entire Boat ................ $5,000 (15 years) (40+ years)
Replace Dinghy & Outboard (15hp) .. $10,000 (10 years)
Replace Winches ................... $12,000 (20 years) (30 + years)
Replace Hatches & Ports ........... $15,000 (20 years)

Its a personal opinion but these are the sort of dates we may choose to replace stuff. Some prices look about right, others are OTT. A new manual toilet costs £140 plus £60 for hoses this side of the pond. New good quality working sails will be more than $6k if you want them to really last.

Pete

[s/v Moondancer]

It also depends on usage...We sailed 40,000 ocean miles in 10 years and used the dinghy 300 days a year!

The roller furlers were sealed bearing and both genoa and staysail failed at 35,000 nm.

[chakil]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Port Engine ............... $20,000 (15 years) (25 years)
Replace Starboard Engine .......... $20,000 (15 years) (25 years)
Replace Spars ..................... $25,000 (20 years) (40+ years)
Replace Standing Rigging .......... $10,000 (7.5 years) (10 - 15 years)
Replace Running Rigging ........... $5,000 (5 years) (10 years)
Replace Lifelines ................. $1,000 (7.5 years) (15 years)
Replace Working Sails ............. $6,000 (7.5 years) (10 years)
Replace Stack Pack ................ $1,500 (5 years) (10 years)
Replace Gennaker/Code Zero/Furler . $7,500 (15 years)
Replace Ground Tackle ............. $3,000 (7.5 years) (10 years)
Replace Fenders ................... $1,500 (10 years)
Install Solar Panels .............. $6,000 (15 years)
Replace Batteries/Cables .......... $4,000 (7.5 years) (20 years)
Replace Bilge Pumps ............... $2,000 (7.5 years)
Replace Hoses, Plumbing, ...Seacocks, Through-Hulls ........ $5,000 (15 years) Replace All Cushions .............. $5,000 (15 years)
Replace Toilet/Hoses (Port) ....... $2,000 (15 years) (10 years)
Replace Toilet/Hoses (Starboard) .. $2,000 (15 years)
Replace Offshore Life Raft ........ $4,000 (10 years) (20 years)
Install/Replace Watermaker ........ $10,000 (15 years)
Replace Basic Electronics ......... $6,000 (10 years) (15 years)
Replace Autopilot ................. $5,000 (15 years)
Install/Replace Radar ............. $3,000 (15 years)
Install/Replace SSB ............... $5,000 (15 years)
Replace Fridge & Freezer .......... $4,000 (15 years)
Replace Stove ..................... $2,000 (15 years)
Replace Windlass .................. $2,500 (15 years)
Rewire Entire Boat ................ $5,000 (15 years) (40+ years)
Replace Dinghy & Outboard (15hp) .. $10,000 (10 years)
Replace Winches ................... $12,000 (20 years) (30 + years)
Replace Hatches & Ports ........... $15,000 (20 years)

Its a personal opinion but these are the sort of dates we may choose to replace stuff. Some prices look about right, others are OTT. A new manual toilet costs £140 plus £60 for hoses this side of the pond. New good quality working sails will be more than $6k if you want them to really last.

Pete

Thank you for your sharing.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by chakil

I dont agree , I just found a list in terms of years , What do you think?

Port Engine ............... $20,000 (15 years)
Replace Starboard Engine .......... $20,000 (15 years)
Replace Spars ..................... $25,000 (20 years)
Replace Standing Rigging .......... $10,000 (7.5 years)
Replace Running Rigging ........... $5,000 (5 years)
Replace Lifelines ................. $1,000 (7.5 years)
Replace Working Sails ............. $6,000 (7.5 years)
Replace Stack Pack ................ $1,500 (5 years)
Replace Gennaker/Code Zero/Furler . $7,500 (15 years)
Replace Ground Tackle ............. $3,000 (7.5 years)
Replace Fenders ................... $1,500 (10 years)
Install Solar Panels .............. $6,000 (15 years)
Replace Batteries/Cables .......... $4,000 (7.5 years)
Replace Bilge Pumps ............... $2,000 (7.5 years)
Replace Hoses, Plumbing, ...Seacocks, Through-Hulls ........ $5,000 (15 years) Replace All Cushions .............. $5,000 (15 years)
Replace Toilet/Hoses (Port) ....... $2,000 (15 years)
Replace Toilet/Hoses (Starboard) .. $2,000 (15 years)
Replace Offshore Life Raft ........ $4,000 (10 years)
Install/Replace Watermaker ........ $10,000 (15 years)
Replace Basic Electronics ......... $6,000 (10 years)
Replace Autopilot ................. $5,000 (15 years)
Install/Replace Radar ............. $3,000 (15 years)
Install/Replace SSB ............... $5,000 (15 years)
Replace Fridge & Freezer .......... $4,000 (15 years)
Replace Stove ..................... $2,000 (15 years)
Replace Windlass .................. $2,500 (15 years)
Rewire Entire Boat ................ $5,000 (15 years)
Replace Dinghy & Outboard (15hp) .. $10,000 (10 years)
Replace Winches ................... $12,000 (20 years)
Replace Hatches & Ports ........... $15,000 (20 years)

Unlike Sailmonkey and Kenomac, I tend to agree with you. That being said, I do agree with them that your list is perhaps a bit aggressive but it is good that you developed this comprehensive item list. However, I really doubt that a good portion of these items actually need replacement at 10 years, or even 15 years. Ultimately, the surveyor will look at the items you list and help you determine if they need repair or replacement then its up to you to decide how much the boat is worth to you.

The only things on that list that I would really concern myself with is: engines (hours over 4000-5000), standing rigging (insurance is getting tough on this one), batteries (maybe), an liferaft. I also look at props and bottom paint.

The rest of your items should be reflected in the overall value of your offer. If you really feel that you need to replace all that stuff then make your offer but don't be surprised if the guy never wants to talk to you again.

[gallatin1988]

The following is from James Baldwin at atomvoyages.com:

A final word of advice to the novice sailor - resist the temptation to undertake a major refit and extensive modifications on your new old boat right at the start. It's best to make only the obvious repairs needed and go out and sail locally and on some coastal vacation passages to learn exactly what is and what is not needed for you. Otherwise you may end up spending years and many thousands of dollars more than expected modifying your boat and then find out on your first ocean crossing that the boat is not right for you or those great ideas you had during the refurbishment did not work out that well at sea.

[jrbogie]

Originally Posted by chakil

Why do you think so ? We are trying to make estimates and did you read what s/v Moondancer says? Isnt that a fact?
If this is ridiculous, what do you think of common saying that you may spend %10 of the purchase each year for maintenance?
We should make estimations which may have %5 room to be false but otherwise we may be broke one day and have to sell our boat for nothing.

the common saying that you spend 10 percent of the purchase price is absurd. that said, doesn't seem to me you can emotionally afford this boat.

[dakno]

The only item that needs immediate attention is standing rigging. The rest of the items you replace on a as needed basis. All of the items you mention have a paper life of 10 years with the exception of batteries (5 years). So, even though a item has a expected life of 10 years it may in fact last 15 or could have been replaced after 5. My boat is now 11 years old. When I purchased it was 7 years old. I have replaced batteries, sails, one ac, and a few pumps. Good luck

[marcmmmm]

The L400 product line has had many problems with rot under the mast. There is a cavity there that collects water, the water cannot run out and will rot. The entire cavity underneath the water tanks has to be removed to even check it properly. Lagoon will cover the repairs if you are the original owner. If not, you have to check and repair this your self. Look it up and do your research.

Also, the SD50 Saildrives clutches slip. There is a permanent aftermarket fix out there found by looking up "SD50 Saildrives". This only happens with SD50s paired to the Yanmar engines. The problem with this is that the clutch cones in the SD50s will slip causing thrust to become unavailable in one or both engines at the most inopportune times. It is not predictable. The Youtube Vid describing the problem is at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov1c6E3lcAM

.

I owned a L400 so I am talking from personal experience here. I experienced both of these symptoms with the L400 I owned.

[chakil]

Originally Posted by jrbogie

the common saying that you spend 10 percent of the purchase price is absurd. that said, doesn't seem to me you can emotionally afford this boat.

Be cool , its just a boat

[Fore and Aft]

Chakil it really depends on how the boat has been treated and used. I surveyed a Fountaine Pajot cat that was about 10 years old and it needed a major refit. She had been a very well used charter boat, then a family with kids had sailed (flogged) her across the Pacific. The boat needed new toilets, the engines were very high hours and were the worst looking Yanmars I had seen in years, the rudder bearings were very sloppy (it turned out the shafts were corroded as well so it meant new rudders), the sails were patched and worn, a couple of interior cupboard doors were missing, the standing rigging was original and all the halyards looked original. The upholstery was terrible the list goes on.
Some items to replace are a personal decision like hatches or Portholes that have crazed Perspex. That drives me nuts not being able to see out clearly yet other people live with it.

The end of the day Chakil expect to spend some money, just how much is like asking for the winning lotto numbers.....
Cheers

[mikedefieslife]

I keep reading the word re-fit and I'm wondering what exactly people are talking about.

In my mind that is things like ripping out cabinets and rebuilding them, changing countertop and work surfaces, perhaps new flooring or cabin soles, new headlining etc..

Yet in most modern cats, all the furniture is fibreglass with a veneer over it. The saloon has a FG liner, the floorings are likely to last the life of the boat, and no-one really ever touches the galley since they are so tiny anyway.

So what is a re-fit on a 10 year old Lagoon, FP, Nautitech etc..

It's definitely not sails, new electronic devices, batteries or engines, that is more equipping the boat.

[Rapanui]

Having bought a 10 year old boat in charter, the refit figures suggested are totally over hyped both for life and replacement cost. You need to think realistically about the life expectancy of items on a case by case basis taking into account the current condition, which you can only ascertain by carrying out routine maintenance of each. You cannot assign a fixed life to any boat system. A surveyor should be able to give you a view on likely life of things like sails, rigging, deck gear, hatches and engines/saildrives, but other systems like fridges, windlass, batteries electronics will only be revealed by use and deeper inspection. But you will get a feel for how well the boat has been used and looked after.

[RichandHelen]

We bought a 2012 relatively lightly used (900 engine hours) very fine quality (Tartan) sloop. Very clean survey. Good maintenance records. So you might THINK that first-rear maintenance should be no big deal.

Well.... In the first month we had to rebuild both power furlers - $3800. The freezer would not get below 32 degrees. Multiple visits from fridge specialists. Gas in. Gas out. Finally found a tiny shell fragment in a "thumb" pump. $1000+. Car jammed on main while hoisting with power winch. Made a small tear. Trailing edge of jib also frayed. Both sails to sail loft for small repairs - $450. Power cabintop winch making strange noise. Disassembled, Warped tooth from past strain. New gear - $400. Genset failed to start in second month. Still working on this one but I'm prepared for $2000 - $3000 for the head to be pulled and remilled. We did normal prudent maintenance to the engine and genset - oil, impellers and filters - maybe $300. New filter for the filtered water - $100. Had to replace the windex/anemometer - $400. Renewed Navionics - $200. The prop plain old fell off while in the slip (don't ask). Diver/installer $400. New hailing port stern lettering $200. Insurance is about $400/month. Plus. Plus Plus.

Then there are the things you may ELECT to do for your new baby. We: Had all of the exterior teak revarnished (12 coats). Had covers made for all of the exterior wood and the hatches. Had chaps made for the dinghy. Installed a new dodger. Had the entire boat polished. Changed all bulbs to LED's. That involved a new deck/steaming light. Installed an LED tri-color at the masthead. Fabricated a new transparent lexan hatchboard. New cockpit speakers. Two new smart TV's.

The admiral is now working with a designer for new cockpit and interior cushions and new custom sheets and bedding. The above, while elective, is at least $20,000.

Long story short - no matter how clean your purchase - boats need maintenance and stuff breaks. And, to me, if you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on anything - it deserves to be well-treated and well-maintained. The amount you spend is largely up to you except to fix the things that make your boat unusable or unsafe for the way you will use it.